Is there a "hardest cert/most stringent certifier?"

[KevinNM]

ISo if I'm not mistaken, for example, if an instructor is certified to Cave 2 level with a rebreather, the instructor must do 25 dives that qualify as Cave 2 with rebreather and have nothing to with training students.

I'm not sure of exactly that case, what it says is:
Log at least twenty-five, non-training dives per year. Half of these dives must be at the
highest level of instructional (not diver) certification—i.e., a GUE Tech 3 diver
authorized to teach Cave 1 must conduct a minimum of twelve Cave 1 dives towards renewal. The remaining documented dives should be oriented toward enhancing personal skill development.

You also have to be an active instructor; per year they must:
Document that: (a) they have completed at least one formal GUE course as the
instructor of record, or (b) they have served as staff on one GUE ITC or (c) they have assisted, audited or participated in three complete GUE diving courses.

But the other instructor control is this one:
1.6.4 Instructor Requalification
GUE instructors are required to requalify with a GUE Instructor Evaluator every four years in every curriculum (Recreational, Foundational, Technical, and Cave) they are certified to teach.
These formal requalifications attest to continued mastery of required knowledge and skills to competently and safely teach a GUE class to standard. Instructors who fail to requalify within four years are rendered immediately inactive and are required to return their instructor cards to GUE Headquarters.

It's not a trivial commitment to be an instructor for GUE.


Edit: IIRC, Lynne mentioned that her first try at Fundamentals didn't work out due to the choice of instructor. Not that he was bad, but his style didn't work for her. It happens.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I'm not sure of exactly that case, what it says is:
Log at least twenty-five, non-training dives per year. Half of these dives must be at the
highest level of instructional (not diver) certification—i.e., a GUE Tech 3 diver
authorized to teach Cave 1 must conduct a minimum of twelve Cave 1 dives towards renewal. The remaining documented dives should be oriented toward enhancing personal skill development.

Thanks for the clarification. So if I understand correctly, the hypothetical GUE Tech 3 diver authorized to teach Cave 1 would also have to do at least 25 Tech 3 dives over three years just to maintain his Tech 3 personal status, in addition to 12 Cave 1 dives each year to maintain his Cave 1 instructor status.

It's not a trivial commitment to be an instructor for GUE.

That's the bottom line! Instructors with other agencies may do hundreds of dives per year in the course of training students, but a prospective student might ask how many additional dives did the instructor do for his own benefit that challenged him to use his skills to the fullest. Some instructors from other agencies no doubt do plenty of such dives--some are active here on SB--but a prospective student who cares about such things would generally have to ask them as part of the process of "interviewing" instructors. With GUE, a prospective student can be assured the instructor is not just someone who goes through the motions of instructing but is a serious diver himself.

 

[Coztick]

GUE does have a regiment that produces a better diver, or at least fails a poorer diver.
It sounds like you best have the skills to pass a GUE course before enrolling as opposed to the other's who are happy to sell a cert. card.
I feel a like minded buddy or mentor would be the next best thing to a great instructor.
Practice all the skills required for all the courses you would like to take. Find out what it takes to pass GUE fundamentals with a tech pass. (Seems to be the big challenge course) Take the course or not but no one is stopping you from developing good skills.
I'm not knocking instruction, I would just like to emphasize practice and experience.
Personally I am a vacation diver that has just done my first local dive in a drysuit in a cold mountain lake. I learned allot because I knew what to expect so I don't think I will take the course but that's a personal choice, not a recommendation.
Do you want the skills or do you want the card? Find a buddy or club and rack up the bottomtime training to your (informed) standards. Happy diving!

My 2psi.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

No matter what anyone says, the instructor does matter, not only in scuba diving but in everything else, including courses at places such as MIT and Harvard.

No one is saying that instructor does not matter. In order to become a professor with MIT and Harvard, you have to be well above the rest. Same is with GUE and UTD. Becoming an instructor for these two agencies is not easy. These agencies have taken it upon themselves to filter out a lot of bad apples and have restricted their instructor pool to the few that can enforce a certain standard. Other agencies have not done that and that is why a newly certified diver has to go out and do what the agency was supposed to do for him i.e. filter out the bad apples.

Secondly, I also give credit to these two agencies for creating the ideal dive buddy. When I am diving with unknown GUE and UTD guys, even before jumping into the water, I know what their skill level will be. So far they have not failed my expectations. The same can not be said about these other mainstream agencies. When I get paired with an insta-buddy who is PADI, SSI, SDI etc, I have no idea who I am getting. Some are really good divers while others are ... they should not be in the water. Who do we blame for such a huge deviation in "Advanced Open Water?" There is a very large skill set that falls under the category AOW and you never know where in that large spectrum your next insta-buddy will fit.

 

[RyanT]

The MIT/Harvard analogy is not a good one. In order to become a professor at these institutions, you have to be well above the rest in terms of how your research pushes the front of knowledge in a particular field. How well you can teach is given little consideration.

 

[KevinNM]

The MIT/Harvard analogy is not a good one. In order to become a professor at these institutions, you have to be well above the rest in terms of how your research pushes the front of knowledge in a particular field. How well you can teach is given little consideration.

There is a "tradition" at some famous universities that pretty much every professor who gets the "best professor" rating from the students doesn't make tenure and gets fired.

 

[Nemrod]

To the OP here is what will make you a better diver:

1. Develop, if not already there, a solid base level of physical fitness and get on or near BMI.
2. Take a rescue course and advanced course from any ABC agency but preferably from two different instructors.
3. Dive with experienced divers in differing diving environs.

Good luck.

N

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

The OP asked which is the strictest agency so GUE and UTD came up. Before anyone jumps on the GUE / UTD band wagon they also need to look at the overall cost vs benefit situation of going that way.

GUE and UTD are both expensive not just in terms of courses but also the style of diving. UTD Tec 1 guys have to use Helium as a standard gas below 100 so if they are doing decompression dive at 120 feet on standard gas, they spend 90-100 USD on back gas alone. TDI divers get to choose for themselves when they need Helium. For decompression diving in the 120 feet range it is uncommon for divers to be using Helium and the cost of the back gas is half for the TDI guy than it is for GUE/UTD fellow. In the long run this means that a man with limited budget will dive more if he stayed away from GUE/UTD even though they train divers to a higher level. Some of my UTD friends feel trapped because firstly you need to log a certain number of dives to progress to the next level and secondly the cost per decompression dive that these guys incur is more than what my TDI dive budies are paying. Standard gasses are expensive for shallower depths and so is the mandatory gear and lights etc.

In another thread, I asked about Cave training and to be full cave certified through a mainstream agency, the training expense is coming to be 1500 - 1800 USD. If I was to do GUE Cave 1 then that course alone is 2600 USD range. Keep in mind that GUE Fundies would have to be cleared as a pre-requisite course which is another 800 - 900 USD. The total cost would then be close to 3500 USD for GUE Cave 1.The cost in which GUE is training me to start my cave diving is the cost in which I would become an experienced cave diver with 170 - 200 real dives after my certification if I went with NACD. The question then should not be if GUE's newly graduated Cave 1 diver is better than an NACD newbie graduate Full Cave diver because they are half the price of each other. The question should be if GUE's Cave 1 diver better than an NACD Cave diver with 170 - 200 real dives under his belt because they are both created in the same money.

Let me make this thread simple for the OP.

If you wish to be a highly trained diver who has no money left to dive because he spent it all in training then GUE / UTD are the way to go. If you wish to be the poorly trained diver who gets to dive a whole lot more because he saved money by sticking to cheaper certifications then PADI,SSI, SDI, NAUI etc are the way to go. Choose how you wish to be miserable and dive.

 

[kathydee]

T

 

[kathydee]

I'Although GUE Fundamentals is a recreational-level class, all GUE instructors are certified as technical divers. To maintain their instructor status, they are required to requalify every four years, and ALL GUE divers are required to do 25 non-training dives over a 3-year span at their highest certification level. So if I'm not mistaken, for example, if an instructor is certified to Cave 2 level with a rebreather, the instructor must do 25 dives that qualify as Cave 2 with rebreather and have nothing to with training students. I have heard there is a new instructor fitness (BMI) requirement, too, though I haven't seen it appear in the published standards.

A.

Log at least twenty-five, non-training dives per year. Half of these dives must be at the highest level of instructional (not diver) certification—i.e., a GUE Tech 3 diver
authorized to teach Cave 1 must conduct a minimum of twelve Cave 1 dives towards renewal. The remaining documented dives should be oriented toward enhancing personal skill development.

You also have to be an active instructor; per year they must:
Document that: (a) they have completed at least one formal GUE course as the
instructor of record, or (b) they have served as staff on one GUE ITC or (c) they have assisted, audited or participated in three complete GUE diving courses.

But the other instructor control is this one:
1.6.4 Instructor Requalification
GUE instructors are required to requalify with a GUE Instructor Evaluator every four years in every curriculum (Recreational, Foundational, Technical, and Cave) they are certified to teach.
These formal requalifications attest to continued mastery of required knowledge and skills to competently and safely teach a GUE class to standard. Instructors who fail to requalify within four years are rendered immediately inactive and are required to return their instructor cards to GUE Headquarters.

It's not a trivial commitment to be an instructor for GUE..

Thanks for the clarification. So if I understand correctly, the hypothetical GUE Tech 3 diver authorized to teach Cave 1 would also have to do at least 25 Tech 3 dives over three years just to maintain his Tech 3 personal status, in addition to 12 Cave 1 dives each year to maintain his Cave 1 instructor status..

Thanks for quoting the standards . This is all true.

To assure our divers are active, each GUE diver must log 25 dives at their highest certification level (every three years). Every 12 months, our instructors are required to log 25 non-training dives at the level they instruct. So for example, I'm certified as a GUE Cave 2, Tech 1 diver and a Fundamentals Instructor. To renew my certification cards, every three years I document proof of at least 25 Cave 2 dives & 25 Tech 1 dives. To maintain active instructor status, every year I have to document proof of at least 25 recreational non-training dives. Our instructors must also pass annual fitness tests/medical exams and re-qualification dives with instructor trainers every 4 years.

Our goal is to offer the highest quality classes consistently throughout the agency. So in addition to all these requirements, every student submits a detailed quality assurance survey at the end of their class. All class feedback is carefully reviewed by our QA department to assure high and consistent standards around the world & great classes !