Cave Certs Expiration

[kensuf]

Ken, I may need to see if I can audit your cavern course. I have a PADI Cavern card from 1993 from some instructor named Jarrod Jablonski...wonder if it is any good?

That's the guy that told you walking doubles down to Jug Hole was acceptable?

Here's an interesting story for you, a guy took advanced from me 3 years ago. He had previously been certified as an OW diver through the YMCA at UF back in the 90s, but had stopped diving for several years and was getting back into it. His card was from JJ.

 

[kensuf]

I like to think of NAUI Cave 1 as basically zero to Apprentice. They're close enough on paper, 2 nav decisions -vs- 1, and no deco versus some deco (as necessary), that most people who understand one can understand the other.

NAUI Cave 2 is a completely different beast, and it's a really good / cool program. It completes full cave by having full navigation (circuits, traverses, siphons, etc) + stage + survey.

There's a mandatory amount of experience required to go from Cave 1 to Cave 2.

 

[Imbodie]

I'm more confused now.
"clip on backgas" doesn't make sense to me. Backgas is either backmounted doubles or the bottom gas you have in your main sidemount cylinders. Not gas in stages or deco gases.
.

The way I remember it... "limited to amount of gas available in back mounted cylinders" or something to that effect.... I did my class in side mount.... so I read that to be as much gas as I can clip to my harness.... OR as long as the cylinder stayed attached to my body... meaning I can't drop stages...
REALLY that had to be explained??

 

[rjack321]

The way I remember it... "limited to amount of gas available in back mounted cylinders" or something to that effect.... I did my class in side mount.... so I read that to be as much gas as I can clip to my harness.... OR as long as the cylinder stayed attached to my body... meaning I can't drop stages...
REALLY that had to be explained??

Well since you can't even explain it how do you expect me to?

 

[rjack321]

I like to think of NAUI Cave 1 as basically zero to Apprentice. They're close enough on paper, 2 nav decisions -vs- 1, and no deco versus some deco (as necessary), that most people who understand one can understand the other.

NAUI Cave 2 is a completely different beast, and it's a really good / cool program. It completes full cave by having full navigation (circuits, traverses, siphons, etc) + stage + survey.

There's a mandatory amount of experience required to go from Cave 1 to Cave 2.

I did GUE cave 1 and 2 and its probably more aligned with Naui than other progressions. Although back when I did mine we were limited to 1/6ths. This has since changed to allow use of a bit more gas.

 

[Imbodie]

Well since you can't even explain it how do you expect me to?

I just kept it simple and dove whatever was in my sidemount kit.... Like I need more gas....

Have been tempted to use my "safety" gas (which I don't even use to begin with) to get to the stop sign, drop it at stop sign, and then start using my primary gas... sort of a stage... but sort of within the requirement... I tend to use 200 to 300 psi to get to the stop sign and then my SAC drops.... just more tasks to start the dive I guess... I really can't explain it.. but never fails the first 10 minutes of a dive is ALWAYS where I use the most breathing gas.

 

[rjack321]

I just kept it simple and dove whatever was in my sidemount kit.... Like I need more gas....

Have been tempted to use my "safety" gas (which I don't even use to begin with) to get to the stop sign, drop it at stop sign, and then start using my primary gas... sort of a stage... but sort of within the requirement... I tend to use 200 to 300 psi to get to the stop sign and then my SAC drops.... just more tasks to start the dive I guess... I really can't explain it.. but never fails the first 10 minutes of a dive is ALWAYS where I use the most breathing gas.

As a general rule, you want to bring safety gas in as far as possible. Gets you to that volume quicker, use it and ditch it to continue as fast as possible. Leaving it close to the entrance isn't very useful since it only takes a few cf to get out from the sign (usually) and problems tend to occur at max penetration. ymmv

 

[Germie]

I dont know naui, but know from other agencies the 1/6 rule. I will put some oil on the fire, but how differs going on intro level too far and use 1/4 or the always discussed 1/3 to a diver with just a ow cert and dive to 90 ft? Or a normoxic trimixdiver going to 260ft?
All exemples are outside certification limits and in all cases the next level course covers what the diver already is doing.
When is extending limits going over limits? As instructor you can tell people not to do, you can advise them, but at the end all divers are human. There is no law that states what to do. It will be always a difficult question with not 1 answer. The you dont know what you dont know is difficult.
Some divers can do the cavern- intro- full path in 1 week, a lot cant. I see here people who are always against a zero to hero path, but i have seen some divers can do and agencies allow this. A always no makes some divers going over limits. A always yes makes divers going too fast too. As instructor you can advise, you can say no, but you cannot stop a diver going to another instructor who has other ideas. And as long all is within standards the other instructor is right too.
It is always difficult. Accidents nobody wants to happen.
And i have seen divers who took d20 liters to stay within certification limits instead of smaller doubles and a stage. Right choice or a trick to get further in a cave?

There is no redundany for stupidity. The 1/3 rule is quite agressive, never forget that.

 

[Imbodie]

There is no law that states what to do.
There is no redundany for stupidity. The 1/3 rule is quite agressive, never forget that.

There is no LAW... you are correct. There IS a RULE... and that states don't dive beyond your CERTIFICATION/TRAINING level...
Seems to me the people that die are the ones that break the "rules" of cave diving.... or have health related issues...
I don't have a lot of control over the health thing (you never know when you could have a heart attack) but I DO have control over following the rules... If someone wants to violate one of the rules of cave diving, it is their life...
I like living

I don't understand how rule of thirds is aggressive... 2 times the amount of gas to get out as it took to get in.... seems to be a good rule...
SURE you could change it to the rule of 4ths... or 6ths or even 8ths but then it just becomes a matter of taking more air on the trip... No matter what rule is used... it SHOULD be universal for ALL levels of certification.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

There is no LAW... you are correct. There IS a RULE... and that states don't dive beyond your CERTIFICATION/TRAINING level...
Seems to me the people that die are the ones that break the "rules" of cave diving.... or have health related issues...
I don't have a lot of control over the health thing (you never know when you could have a heart attack) but I DO have control over following the rules... If someone wants to violate one of the rules of cave diving, it is their life...
I like living

I don't understand how rule of thirds is aggressive... 2 times the amount of gas to get out as it took to get in.... seems to be a good rule...
SURE you could change it to the rule of 4ths... or 6ths or even 8ths but then it just becomes a matter of taking more air on the trip... No matter what rule is used... it SHOULD be universal for ALL levels of certification.

Rules of thirds is aggressive in may ways. If it it's a low/no flow or syphon system you swim in and then out. It is very likely that you are not going to go out as fast as you go in because you've already been working.

It SHOULD NOT be universal for ANY level or EVERY dive.

It's part of gas management that should have been thoroughly discussed in class.

New cavers have NO business using the max allotted gas for penetration.