"Accidental" deco with 1-day group, what to learn?

[Diver0001]

Sarcasm aside... I suggest you do some real reading on the subject. The reduced gradient factors you're assuming to be unrelated to bubble theory.... somehow plucked from thin air by Wienke... are very much rooted in predicted physiological bubble mechanisms.

You're going to be eating your hat when you realize who it is you're talking to.

You're not a guy whose first nature is to listen but in this case I would strongly advise you to do so.

R..

 

[BazzaB]

Maybe another thing to consider
How do you know you have enough gas to do the "accidental" deco ?
What is the limit 15min, 20min, 25min - How many Bar ?
What if you/your buddy has equipment failure, do you still have enough ?

 

[DevonDiver]

You're going to be eating your hat when you realize who it is you're talking to.

You're not a guy whose first nature is to listen but in this case I would strongly advise you to do so.

R..

I'd certainly listen... but having read Wienke describe his concept of needing slow tissue compartments to compensate for persistent saturated gas in lipid tissues influencing lengthy bubble existence... and how that applied to multi-day recreational diving (whereas simple gas diffusion was not a critical concern)... I'm not sold on statements that 'penalties' were added on some sort of unscientific personal whim.

 

[Diver0001]

I'd certainly listen... but having read Wienke describe his concept of needing slow tissue compartments to compensate for persistent saturated gas in lipid tissues influencing lengthy bubble existence... and how that applied to multi-day recreational diving (whereas simple gas diffusion was not a critical concern)... I'm not sold on statements that 'penalties' were added on some sort of unscientific personal whim.

I would think that manufacturers had no choice. The reality of bubble models is that they have an innate tendency to over saturate slow tissues. This could only become compounded with multi-day repetitive diving, which is the kind of diving that will heavily load slow tissues.

Without some kind of "fudge factor" I'm pretty sure that RGBM computers would be causing an epidemic of DCS among vacation divers.

R..

 

[rjack321]

Without some kind of "fudge factor" I'm pretty sure that RGBM computers would be causing an epidemic of DCS among vacation divers.

Except that the Suunto RGBM model sure looks like a dissolved gas model with some extra shallow padding. Its not actually a Weinke or Yount like model at all

 

[rjack321]

You do understand that Wienke developed RGBM? Why would he concur with the repetitive dive issues, then write an algorithm to the contrary? LOL.

Except Suunto bought the RGBM name, they didn't actually implement the code. Same name, different outcomes.

 

[rjack321]

What do you mean? You mean that there is a body of data with large numbers of dives done with people diving computers set to the wrong mix?

I don't think so.

Just drop in the actual EANx used into some planning software and start doing repetitive dives with realistic surface intervals. Do you get into hypothetical deco using Buhlmann or VPM? Yes, no, and how much deco gets accumulated? @fmerkel is only trying to "undo" the strong biases (compared to other algorithms) in the Suunto algorithm, its not hard to do that by gaming the EANx percentage.

As he pointed out, you can have 10mins of NDL left on the majority of computers in current use paired with 10mins of deco on a Suunto - which is a ridiculous spread. Bumping up the EANx percentage is a plausible tactic to bring the Suunto in line with what other computers are saying.

 

[Diver0001]

Except that the Suunto RGBM model sure looks like a dissolved gas model with some extra shallow padding. Its not actually a Weinke or Yount like model at all

That's true. I think Suunto has made its own algorithm that acts on decompression dives (as far as I can tell) like "bubble wrapped Buhlmann". They say it's RGBM but my take is that it's not and the claim is all about marketing to people who still do not understand that you don't actually WANT RGBM in the real world.

R..

 

[rjack321]

That's true. I think Suunto has made its own algorithm that acts on decompression dives (as far as I can tell) like "bubble wrapped Buhlmann". They say it's RGBM but my take is that it's not and the claim is all about marketing to people who still do not understand that you don't actually WANT RGBM in the real world.

R..

Oh indeed. I won't dive it, the results tend to be an outlier and I don't like outliers. There are of course kludges to shift its results towards the mean. Like never doing a reverse profile, long surface intervals, fewer dives per day, 0-conservatism, gaming the EANx percentage or letting it finish deco hanging off the boat. Getting something that's not a hyperconservative black box and has understandable code is better.

 

[Diver0001]

Oh indeed. I won't dive it, the results tend to be an outlier and I don't like outliers. There are of course kludges to shift its results towards the mean. Like never doing a reverse profile, long surface intervals, fewer dives per day, 0-conservatism, gaming the EANx percentage or letting it finish deco hanging off the boat. Getting something that's not a hyperconservative black box and has understandable code is better.

yeah, well.... I guess it's like a car. Some people don't care how the motor works or what kind of gas mileage it gets as long as it's reliable.

I don't think there are any computers on the market right now that have a reputation for bending divers. Outlier or not, the Suunto computers have a good reputation and a lot of people will be much more concerned with how much it costs than what it does.

R..