A Cert Card for everything, including how to tie your shoe...

[mikemill]

Next thing you know, people'll be complaining about the underwater basket weaving certification...

Who teaches that? I would seriously consider it just to have that card

 

[vjanelle]

Underwater basket weaving - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Superlyte27]

AOW (at least for padi) certifies you to 100'. 130' just leads to more narcosis, shorter NDLs, and more gas planning issues... Which is what you get from the deep diver cert. All you're paying for is a guide to come down with you and make sure you're not being a total asshat. The narcosis at 100' is usually manageable.

For technical diving, it depends on the flavour of koolaid, but TDI Has A Course For Everything. This is probably what the guy was talking about. If it was covered in your IANTD class, then the answer is "yes". The recreational nitrox courses doesn't cover deco since you shouldn't be exceeding the recommended limits anyways(as you have not been taught what to do).

decompression diving and teach me how to handle pure O2 during a decompression stop.

QUOTE]

Ok, my AOW book from 1995'ish says 130' not 100'. PADI
I was taught DECO in my IANTD EAN. There was no classification of "recreational nitrox"
We were taught how to handle pure Oxygen in that class. That was in 1996'ish

See this is my sorta my issue. All of this stuff was presented in our basic classes 10+ years ago. Diving to 130', Nitrox and it's full scope of benefits, and if we showed up to class diving a drysuit, and needed help, help would be given.

I get the free market system. I guess that if a McDonald's hamburger can shrink to the size of a postage stamp, then the amount of education in the SCUBA world can shrink too. Unless you pay for the extra slice of "cheese" you just don't get what you used to get.

 

[Don Wray]

As Mike said, the courses would not be offered if there was no market for them. Just like there are foods in grocery store you would not buy or eat, there are people that find interest in them, like them and eat them. The courses are offered, not required. A lot is said about the boat diver cert, it's not for everyone but for those who live inland and have never been around boats or diving from boats, there are things to be learned. If you grew up on the coast and been around boats since grade school, is the course worth the money? Probably not. As for other specialty courses, could the skills be learned through mentoring, yes, if they have friends who know something about the subjects.

There is value in getting true information instead of listening to someone who may not really know what they are talking about. There are people who dive often that I know, that I would not want to teach someone I know about deep diving or give them tips on perfecting their buoyancy. People go and take courses that interest them, not what others think they should take.

Diving instruction is a business, shops and instructors are in it to make money. I paid for every course I took, including the IDC, then annual fees, equipment and having it serviced every year, insurance etc.

As far as your dings at PADI, they don't make a ton of money off the students, the shops or instructor sets the course prices, material prices and cert fee prices. PADI actually makes their money off instructor exams, annual fees from shops and instructors and a small amount of what the student pays for the cert card and materials. The shops/instructors pay PADI one amount for the materials and cert fees, mark it up and charge that to the student. The shops/instructors determine what to charge for the courses not PADI.

You might want to check the other agencies also as PADI is not the only agency to offer continuing education courses.

 

[vjanelle]

Ok, my AOW book from 1995'ish says 130' not 100'. PADI
I was taught DECO in my IANTD EAN. There was no classification of "recreational nitrox"
We were taught how to handle pure Oxygen in that class. That was in 1996'ish

See this is my sorta my issue. All of this stuff was presented in our basic classes 10+ years ago. Diving to 130', Nitrox and it's full scope of benefits, and if we showed up to class diving a drysuit, and needed help, help would be given.

I get the free market system. I guess that if a McDonald's hamburger can shrink to the size of a postage stamp, then the amount of education in the SCUBA world can shrink too. Unless you pay for the extra slice of "cheese" you just don't get what you used to get.

That was then, this is now, 14 years later. Things have been identified, and markets have been narrowed. Some people don't want to dive to 130. Some people need time to adjust to the narcosis, etc.

As I said earlier, some shops throw in dry suit training. I know the place I did my OW with will do it for an extra $100 (to cover wear & tear on the suit, as well as rental costs). The regular course costs $250 & gets you as shiney card, but you gotta do AOW for it.

Courses used to be longer. Yes, they probably should be, but people aren't willing to spend more than ~$500 on something. Is this working out better for the industry or worse? I guess we'll know in another 15 years.

 

[fire_diver]

I don't have a problem with some of the classes. Some of the classes are complete garbage. I could care less either way, people are free to spend thier money on what they want. The problem I do have is that boats and shops are making these POS cards mandatory to do certain dives.

 

[Superlyte27]

Seriously, you don't think people should take classes on deco? Considering how much data (scientific, pseudo-scientific, anecdotal, etc) there is about decompression theory and the dangers of getting it wrong I would say that deco is a good class to take.


I'm sorry to hear that you don't have respect for those that are trying to seek out formal education instead of doing it via a "crazy diving career".

I'm typing slower now, so you go ahead and read slower too. Maybe you'll comprehend better.

Ready?
First, I didn't disrespect anyone taking classes. Secondly (am I still typing too fast?) I didn't say people shouldn't seek education on DECO. What my point was (typing even slower because this one is a toughy apparently) that 10+ years ago, these topics were covered at the basic level. 130' was covered in AOW. Deco was covered in EAN. Drysuit or Doubles were covered in say Cavern or Intro to Cave.

In case you missed it <again> . I wasn't bashing people taking these classes. I was bashing the industry making it a necessity to need these classes as everything I just listed in the above paragraph was offered in their respective corresponding courses. It's a money game and nothing else. We've cut back our services and required people to get what we once gave for free, a little bit of education.

 

[Superlyte27]

The problem I do have is that boats and shops are making these POS cards mandatory to do certain dives.

Yeah, that too.

 

[Superlyte27]

That was then, this is now, 14 years later. Things have been identified, and markets have been narrowed. Some people don't want to dive to 130. Some people need time to adjust to the narcosis, etc.

As I said earlier, some shops throw in dry suit training. I know the place I did my OW with will do it for an extra $100 (to cover wear & tear on the suit, as well as rental costs). The regular course costs $250 & gets you as shiney card, but you gotta do AOW for it.

Courses used to be longer. Yes, they probably should be, but people aren't willing to spend more than ~$500 on something. Is this working out better for the industry or worse? I guess we'll know in another 15 years.

Ok, I can see the logic there. The LDS where I live charges $25 more today than he did 20 years ago. I'm not certain if everything that taught 20 years ago still makes it to the classroom today, but time is money, and the inflation alone = more than $25 bucks. So I can see where perhaps his price should be say $400 instead of $225. So instead of adding nearly $200 he starts streamlining down his course to actually meet what PADI, NAUI, etc., actually requires.

But, is this making better or worse divers? Who knows.

 

[TSandM]

Well, I think things HAVE changed since 96, because Nitrox is now widely used by recreational divers who have no intention of incurring a decompression obligation, and do not need to learn how to cut tables or mix gases.

Some people still do their transition into doubles in their cave classes, but it makes FAR better sense to take a short class at home and learn about them, and get some tips on balancing the gear and on doing valve drills, before you have to do it on an expensive class you had to travel a long way to take.

It may be hard to defend PPB, unless you think of it as a class in how to adjust and balance your equipment, once you have bought your own. I think I could spend a pool session and a couple of open water dives with someone, helping them to move some weight around, work on their body posture underwater, and fine-tuning midwater buoyancy, and they would find it useful.

One of the things about today's world is that people have very limited time. It's hard to carve enough space for a multiple-day class, so things get broken up into digestible chunks. I think there are good and bad things about that, but if it makes continuing diving education more accessible, I think the good outweighs the bad. When it's hard to defend is when the classes are poorly taught.

And my disclaimer . . . I'm a PADI DM and my husband is a PADI OWSI. He hasn't taught many specialty classes yet -- a couple of dry suit classes, I think, is all. But hopefully he WILL teach some, and we will both work to make them worth the student's while.