A FB friend posted his brother died today in Ginnie Springs

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Someone please give this man a stool. Pontificating should be a disease, especially when wrapped with language like hell, Jesus, preaching. Please.

I love it how all the experts are coming out of the woodwork, without knowing the facts, some comments in this thread are highly speculatory, in fact, what credibility do the so called experts present if they (each of you - you know who you are) are willing to engage in a high degree of speculation, I have to ask! My brother wouldn't make a stupid mistake like that, and having said that, even then he was human, humans make mistakes, presumably diving procedures are supposed to account for human error. IF this is in fact what happened, a momentary lapse on the part of my brother, and not something darker and more obscure, then this might have been a multiple technical and procedural failure... The official facts have not been presented. Please stop engaging in high speculation until the facts are known. If the users of this thread wish to discuss what-ifs please do so in the abstract and leave my brother's name out of it out of respect for who is was and what he has done for the sport.

May your memory never fail you. Because your procedures and fail-safe checkpoints sure can. Complacency was not the root cause here. That is not Carlos. Peace out.

I think Doppler would be pretty widely acknowledged as having some expertise.

Most here are going to express the deepest sympathy for the loss of your brother. I definitely do. I've spoken with several people that knew him personally-- he was well liked, and from some of the things I've heard I believe he was an outstanding person.

Please understand, that this forum is for divers to discuss fatal or possibly fatal mistakes, and criticism can be very harsh. The harshness has to be expected, it's serious consequences so reactions against the error can be pretty violent.

I'm certain your brother was a great guy, and that you loved each other, but there is no denying a mistake was made. People make them, and this forum is set aside for other people to talk about them. There is some noise, but there are also important lessons to be learned. Doppler gives a lot of good insight to this community, this is not a good circumstance for the introduction.

Again, I am so sorry for your family's loss.

--Eric
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry for your loss. This thread, however, will only bring you more pain. Part of the process, for us, is speculating on what happened. Exactly what happened is only known to one person, and he is not here to discuss it. That said, fielding different hypotheses for the events surrounding the accident is a mental exercise that can (and does) help to prevent similar accidents from occurring.

There is something to be learned from every diving accident, even if it is just a sharp reminder of 'why' the procedures are they way they are. It is important that we ALL learn from this.
 
Someone please give this man a stool. Pontificating should be a disease, especially when wrapped with language like hell, Jesus, preaching. Please.

I love it how all the experts are coming out of the woodwork, without knowing the facts, some comments in this thread are highly speculatory, in fact, what credibility do the so called experts present if they (each of you - you know who you are) are willing to engage in a high degree of speculation, I have to ask! My brother wouldn't make a stupid mistake like that, and having said that, even then he was human, humans make mistakes, presumably diving procedures are supposed to account for human error. IF this is in fact what happened, a momentary lapse on the part of my brother, and not something darker and more obscure, then this might have been a multiple technical and procedural failure... The official facts have not been presented. Please stop engaging in high speculation until the facts are known. If the users of this thread wish to discuss what-ifs please do so in the abstract and leave my brother's name out of it out of respect for who is was and what he has done for the sport.

May your memory never fail you. Because your procedures and fail-safe checkpoints sure can. Complacency was not the root cause here. That is not Carlos. Peace out.

This is the right forum to engage in what-ifs, and the wrong forum to read if you are emotionally close to someone lost in a mishap. It would probably be better if you avoided this thread, as the discussion that is best for others to learn from is also harshest for those close to the victim(s)...
 
May your memory never fail you. Because your procedures and fail-safe checkpoints sure can. Complacency was not the root cause here.

See the post above as to why "official" facts are not going to be more informative or authoritative than what those who were there have already stated here and elsewhere. However, has anyone analyzed the bottles remaining in his garage or that were with him on the trip but not dove? With what result? That'd be an "official" fact I think we'd all be interested in learning.

Several of his dive buddies have speculated that, based on the facts known, Carlos had several identical O2 bottles and filled one with air after he'd emptied it on his Doria trip. Unfortunately, he didn't label it as air because he seems to have grabbed an identical-looking bottle that was still full of O2. Even more unfortunately, he didn't analyze the "unlabeled" O2 bottle because he was apparently sure he'd just filled it with air. At a level of unfortunate bordering on unfathomable, he didn't analyze the O2 bottle after being asked to on-site because, again, he remembered filling it with air.

That's not a failure of procedures or fail-safe checkpoints, it's a failure of memory. Relying solely on memory is complacency; ignoring requests to analyze a bottle that you haven't even labeled correctly is past complacency and into intentional conduct that gutted the utility of a fail-safe. You say "presumably diving procedures are supposed to account for human error" without understanding that there's no voluntary procedure that can fix someone who ignores it and others who remind them of it. And we don't do involuntary procedures.


That said, I don't think anyone here is looking down their nose at Carlos because he made a series of unthinkable mistakes that killed him. We all recognize what those mistakes were and our minds boggle that he could have made even one such mistake, much less all of them. But he made them.

And despite our willingness to analyze his mistakes here, we also all are hopefully cognizant of the fact that even after this post-mortem, and even after our resolutions to be more vigilant about checking our own gas and our complacency in general and not make the same mistakes that killed Carlos, some day in the future one of us who knew about the lessons this death had to teach will still do something just as dumb and get themselves killed. It is, as you say, human nature. We're just trying to avoid falling prey to it ourselves. Most of us will succeed, but not all of us.
 
Is this summary of errors correct in this case?

  • He took a bottle that was permanently marked as oxygen and put air into it. (Although we have not heard that anyone has been able to locate this actual tank).
  • Even though he completely “over-rode” the MOD stickers and permanent markings on a tank by filling with air… he did NOT put even a little piece of tape on this tank stating that it was filled with air.
  • When loading his truck for his trip to Florida, he made a major error.. he loaded an oxygen bottle that he was sure contained air.
  • When he filled a second tank with oxygen, it was labeled as oxygen by permanent markings and he did NOT put a piece of tape on it with the date and the actual contents of the tank (even though it was not that unusual for him to override the permanent markings on the tank).
  • Thus it appears that he did not follow protocol for labeling of at least two tanks.


  • When he hooked up his tank and regulator he noted that there was no tape on the tank which listed the ACTUAL contents of the tank. He dove with this tank anyway.
  • He failed to analyze his tank immediately before diving (something that I also do not do).
  • When his dive buddies noted that he seemed to be carrying an inappropriate tank (oxygen) and that there was no tape labeling the actual tank contents which should have indicated that the permanent markings were wrong and the actual contents were air, he failed to double check the tank, relying completely upon memory of what tanks he loaded into his truck before he left on a long trip.



Is this correct?
 
"and not something dark and more obscure" says the brother that likely knows Carlos best. Am I missing something here, or perhaps not.
 
Someone please give this man a stool. Pontificating should be a disease, especially when wrapped with language like hell, Jesus, preaching. Please.

I love it how all the experts are coming out of the woodwork, without knowing the facts, some comments in this thread are highly speculatory, in fact, what credibility do the so called experts present if they (each of you - you know who you are) are willing to engage in a high degree of speculation, I have to ask! My brother wouldn't make a stupid mistake like that, and having said that, even then he was human, humans make mistakes, presumably diving procedures are supposed to account for human error. IF this is in fact what happened, a momentary lapse on the part of my brother, and not something darker and more obscure, then this might have been a multiple technical and procedural failure... The official facts have not been presented. Please stop engaging in high speculation until the facts are known. If the users of this thread wish to discuss what-ifs please do so in the abstract and leave my brother's name out of it out of respect for who is was and what he has done for the sport.

May your memory never fail you. Because your procedures and fail-safe checkpoints sure can. Complacency was not the root cause here. That is not Carlos. Peace out.
PM sent
 
How many of you have failed to analyze a tank that you thought had air?

Does this question point to an inherent fault in our training process from day one of Open Water training?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom