Question Advanced gas planning for complex cave dive (upstream/downstream)

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steinbil

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I am not cave certified and I am in no way looking for advice on how to perform cave dives. I always dive within the limits of my training and experience, and implore others to do the same. I am, however, very interested in cave diving, and I ask these questions as an intellectual exercise. If I ever reach this level of training, I'm sure this will be covered in classes, but in any case it will be many years from now, so I ask now to satisfy my nerdy curiosity...

In the latest video on BlueWorldTV, they dive in Jackson Blue and make a jump to a downstream passage off the main line. That immediately made me think about gas planning. I've read about strategies for diving downstream (siphons) using 1/6th of usable gas for the penetration, but what about dives with both upstream and downstream sections?

How would you approach gas planning on a dive like this?

- Recalculate when you get to the jump, so you use 1/6th of the remainder of your 1/3?
- Plan the whole dive at 1/6? Or an intermediate like 1/5?
- Other strategies?
 
We must be thoughtful of not “teaching you how to think and calculate” gas planning. Many people will read this -who are not certified to be diving in a cave - and therefore should not be learning from us how to plan your gas.
 
We must be thoughtful of not “teaching you how to think and calculate” gas planning. Many people will read this -who are not certified to be diving in a cave - and therefore should not be learning from us how to plan your gas.
Yeah, I was a little hesitant to post the question for that reason (hence the disclaimer). In that case, shouldn't this whole forum be restricted to certified cave divers? On the other hand, if anyone is reckless enough to dive in caves without the training, I don't know if more knowledge would be bad for them - maybe it would even show how much there is to learn. Then again, a little bit of knowledge can sometimes be more dangerous than none at all. I have read accident reports of certified cave divers trying to replicate dives (beyond their level) they saw on YouTube with fatal outcome...

It's hard to say. I really don't know what would be the better philosophy here, but I'm happy to defer to those with more experience that have contemplated this. If these questions are inappropriate, I'll ask the mods to close the thread/delete - but maybe there should be a sticky about this in the forum...
 
I strongly urge you to turn your "nerdy curiosity" (I like that :)) toward really understanding the Rock Bottom reserve strategy commonly used for open water. Once you have a solid grasp of that, you should be able to answer your original question yourself. Conceptually, gas planning for cave (or wreck or deco or even open-water) diving is not difficult -- it's merely the repeated application of those basics.
 
I strongly urge you to turn your "nerdy curiosity" (I like that :)) toward really understanding the Rock Bottom reserve strategy commonly used for open water. Once you have a solid grasp of that, you should be able to answer your original question yourself. Conceptually, gas planning for cave (or wreck or deco or even open-water) diving is not difficult -- it's merely the repeated application of those basics.
I'm not sure what you mean by "really understanding" it, but I understand the concept of having enough gas to bring myself and my buddy to the next available gas, from the furthest/deepest point. I also know how to calculate it for any dive I'm certified for (NDL to 30m), and I use that for every dive I do. I could probably figure it out for technical dives as well, based on principles I know like only planning for 1 catastrophic failure etc. I understand the concept of using thirds, or planning sixths for siphons. But I am aware that there might be nuances I would be missing, and I would never assume that I could apply my limited knowledge to a different environment for which I'm not trained. I don't know what I don't know, and I am conscious of that.

Yes, with my limited understanding I could guess - which is what I did with the first alternative in my OP. By using 1/6 of the remainder of my original 1/3, I would have 5/6 to return to the main line, while keeping the original 2/3 for the exit. However, since I have no training and no experience, I don't know if this is practical and I don't know what I'm missing.

Actually I'm less interested in getting "the answer", and more interested in understanding the thought process of how experienced cave divers would approach this situation. And again, it's just because I love learning about things and I love understanding how things work. I have no interest at all in doing any kind of diving outside my training.
 
I am not cave certified and I am in no way looking for advice on how to perform cave dives. I always dive within the limits of my training and experience, and implore others to do the same. I am, however, very interested in cave diving, and I ask these questions as an intellectual exercise. If I ever reach this level of training, I'm sure this will be covered in classes, but in any case it will be many years from now, so I ask now to satisfy my nerdy curiosity...

In the latest video on BlueWorldTV, they dive in Jackson Blue and make a jump to a downstream passage off the main line. That immediately made me think about gas planning. I've read about strategies for diving downstream (siphons) using 1/6th of usable gas for the penetration, but what about dives with both upstream and downstream sections?

How would you approach gas planning on a dive like this?

- Recalculate when you get to the jump, so you use 1/6th of the remainder of your 1/3?
- Plan the whole dive at 1/6? Or an intermediate like 1/5?
- Other strategies?

Disclaimer-do on take anything you have seen on Blue World to date as anything close to resembling proper cave diving techniques.

Now, this is probably going to be a long post.

The "rule of thirds" came about back in the day with teams of 3 in a springing cave system, not dissimilar to what is encountered on the mainline in Jackson Blue. That rule has been used as gospel outside of its original intent but the theory is third in, third out, third reserve with the expectation being that the exit takes less time than the entrance due to the flow in the cave. This is not adequate in low-flow or no-flow caves and several good instructors will actually have you lights out air-share all the way to the exit where most people are unable to complete a safety stop before they suck the tanks dry.
When gas planning for a siphon, most people will just dive to sixths on the way in which allows them 5/12 each for exit/reserve. This is arguably far too conservative for caves like Peacock 3, Cow-Downstream , or Hole in the Wall-Downstream which are technically siphons but are usually barely perceptible flow rates.
Parallel lines is a bit of an anomaly because its siphon is created by an eddy from the main passage and it's not consistent in its flow depending on how the main spring is moving. The most typical dive utilizing the // lines will be to jump in, jump out, and actually exit in the main passage which needs to be treated and planned like a circuit. Typically you would go up the gold line until you hit turn pressure and place a cookie on the line in that spot. If you make it to the exit of // lines then you would drop your cookie at the marked jump point. Dive 2 would be to jump into // lines and kick up until you jump back onto the gold line. Provided you haven't hit your turn pressure you would then pull the line to jump from // to gold and then coast down until you hit your first jump line and pull it. Exit as normal.

Assuming you completed this successfully you would record the amount of gas used for each section of the cave and hold that in wet notes to be able to calculate required gas volumes for each of those sections and you can extrapolate how much gas you need, essentially recalculating your gas plan. This is also very useful if you are going to a spot in a cave and then hanging out there for some period of time to know when you actually have to turn back. Rather useful for things like photo sessions where you mark the gas you used to get in, say 400psi, and then you know you need to leave with no less than 800psi if the rule of thirds applies to that type of diving.

I'll say it because no one else will. The way this is typically dove if you plan on going past where // pops back out is that divers will blind jump into // lines because through most of the passage you can actually see and get back onto the gold line every 30-50ft or so, then blind jump back onto the gold line and carry on until they hit turn pressure and coast out on the gold line. The slightly less bad way is to jump into // and blind jump back onto the gold line but you should verify said gold line if you're going to do that knowing that it's not the way you're supposed to do it. If you've verified it though it still maintains a continuous guideline to the exit.

Before the dive you have to calculate all of this based on expected exit speeds, expected avg depth, expected gas consumption etc. to be sure if you should even bother attempting it. This is usually not done by open circuit divers because things like the rule of thirds is easy and means they don't have to do much in terms of dive planning, but it becomes critical if you are on CCR or on a DPV where you actually have to pre-plan your gas reserves.
 
By "really" understand RB, I mean understand it's a) only as good as the assumptions you make and b) that you can apply it more than once. The point of RB in open water is you know you have enough to get you+buddy from where you are (the bottom) to somewhere else (the surface). Gee, what if you need to get back to the anchor before ascending? It's the same concept, although rather than depth, it's dependent on how far away you swim. With the assumption of no current and no difference in breathing rate on the shared return, it turns out RB is 2x what you used going away. This is precisely where the Rule of Thirds comes from. When you do it a second time like this, it's more commonly known as Modified Thirds (subtract off the ascent gas from what you have now and use 1/3 of the remainder to explore).

A good understanding of RB would also tell you that Thirds (Modified or otherwise) ain't going to cut it if the consumption rate changes or you're swimming into current on the return. However, you should also know how to modify your calculations to reflect those new assumptions. If it turns out you need 3x what you used going away, well that's (Modified) Fourths. Etc.

Nothing changes in a cave. It's all the same math as you would do for an open-water dive (assuming you want to ascend where you descended). Circling back, the takeaway should be gas planning is only as good as the assumptions you put into it. Hopefully that's enough to satisfy your inner nerd until you can discuss safe numbers for those assumptions with your cave instructor (someday, right!). In the meantime, plan your OW dives with Rock Bottom and Modified Thirds (or Fourths, Fifths, or Sixths) for excursions away from the anchor.
 
In the latest video on BlueWorldTV, they dive in Jackson Blue and make a jump to a downstream passage off the main line. That immediately made me think about gas planning. I've read about strategies for diving downstream (siphons) using 1/6th of usable gas for the penetration, but what about dives with both upstream and downstream sections?

How would you approach gas planning on a dive like this?
The only answer to your question is 'it depends'. Is it a two or three diver team, how much of the dive is upstream vs downstream, how strong is the flow, how familiar are you with the dive, how complex is the navigation, restrictions, etc... in Mexico it's not unusual to dive to 1/4ths on downstream lines, but Mexico generally has much less flow than FL.
 
It's actually pretty easy given provided you know:
A - an accurate RMV accounting for...
B - average depth
C - your distance from the exit
D - are OK with a bit of math

If you know your distance from the exit you can calculate how much gas you would need to get home from there using average depth/RMV.

Double that (to share with a potential OOG buddy)

Subtract that amount from your current pressure.

Calculate your usable pressure based on the remainder.

There. You've recalculated.

However, if you try to do this (or try to penetrate a cave at all) without appropriate training there's a good chance you won't go home. So don't do it.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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