advice on first and second stage ScubaPro regs?

[mahjong]

LOL! That Dive4Clams must be a millionaire by now. He lists a steady stream of fantastic Scubapro stuff, old stock and new.

I have dove most Scubapro regs, old and new. Most are terrific, all are fine, but if we're talking 2nd stage, nothing beats my G250 (with the metal adj knob). I've a D400 that's mighty smooth, but still not quite as smooth and easy at all depths and all angles as my G250. I wouldn't rush out and buy another one, even if SP is discontinuing them, because I think there is something special about the particular one I own .

Looks like a couple new ebayers got a bit carried away. Either that or BWI.

 

[halocline]

Why on earth buy old used regulators?.... Doesn't buying a new current regulator with full mfg. warranty make more sense?

Considering regulators have not really improved in the last 20 years at least, and that the warranty is dependent on spending more money annually than a used reg sometimes costs, and that regulators are designed to be completely rebuilt, and with proper care last a lifetime, no it does not make more sense to buy a new current one.

If you listen to the industry sales tactics, sure, lots of things make sense...like buying "life support" and then having it needlessly serviced by someone who's sole qualification might be a two day no-fail seminar.

 

[Zung]

... nothing beats my G250 (with the metal adj knob)...

My personal G250 has a plastic knob, and I love it inspite of its negative effect on my social ranking.

 

[D_B]

...
I can't count the times when a customer bought a "lesser" regulator and done lots of diving with it and then comes back and say "Oh, I wish I bought the better regulator." At the end the price difference is so insignificant over the number of dives and time described and it would make much better sense to buy a better regulator from the beginning and not look back. The price difference is probably not much more than what it would cost for a med-level meal in Europe.

That is very true
The only gear buying advice given us from my instructor (who worked for a LDS) was concerning regulators ... get the best performing regulator you can and avoid getting a "good enough for now", entry regulator ... not because they are unsafe, none of them are, but because ... "a good regulator can last a life time of diving and you don't want to find yourself wishing that you had a better breathing reg a short time later"

I followed his advice and am happy that I did

Following his statement about lasting a lifetime of diving means that the G250V really is still a valid choice, and so is buying another model with equal performance

(for those that do not know, ScubaPro is known for designing many of the parts of their new models in such a way that they will fit in an older model, so that when you have your reg serviced, it's upgraded to the newer parts) that does not mean that the new models parts will fit, but it does show you how SP has handled it in the past

 

[mahjong]

Actually, my memory let me down. I have a few G250s, but my special one--it is uncanny how smoothly it breathes, and I have no idea why--has a black plastic knob. Your social standing is fully restored.

My personal G250 has a plastic knob, and I love it inspite of its negative effect on my social ranking.

 

[superstar]

I hate the term entry level. I have been using entry level regulators for over 25 years, does this mean that I am a newb.

 

[chewie]

my first reg was a 2nd hand mk200-g200. plastic casing & plastic knob. breathes real easy. been diving with it for about 13 years already. even though the regs are old, scubapro still has parts for them

 

[aquaregia]

Why on earth buy old used regulators? How are they easy to find in the OP's locale? Doesn't buying a new current regulator with full mfg. warranty make more sense?

Last I checked they had eBay in the UK.

Do you mean a warranty on defects or the free service parts deals?

Suppose you buy new a SP Mk25 and 2xS600. Let's suppose that costs at least $800. Now you service it once a year at a cost of $25/stage for $75 a year total, but get free parts. Ten years later, you've paid $1550

Suppose you go get a similar HOG package for around $400 from DRIS. Over the next ten years, you get it serviced at $75/yr, plus $35/yr for parts. Ten years later, that's $1500.

Now, suppose you buy the same HOG package but service it yourself every year. That's $750 after ten years.

Now let's go HOG wild (sorry) and assume that because you only replace worn parts you might end up only spending on average $20/yr on service kits. Now you're at $600.

Now let's grab a Mk10 and two adjustable seconds. Say we pay $100. Let's get it serviced every year for $75 and $35 in parts. Wow, $1200!

However, we're resourceful and manage to find parts kits and do it ourselves. Ten years later, $450.

Then we realize that after a year and 120 dives the Mk10 is still in bloody great condition, with the same IP we set it to a year ago and near instant lockup, and that a 109 adjustable requires one o-ring and one DIY EPDM seat. Over ten years, you're looking at a service parts cost of maybe $70, for a grand total of $170.

This isn't a small saving we're talking about, it's an order of magnitude.

I fully appreciate that not everyone wants to work on their own gear, but even assuming an exorbitant purchase price of $100 (I think I paid $40 for my Mk10+2x109) and what I suspect is a fairly low price for the Mk25/2xS600, we're saving several hundred dollars. The 'free parts' locks you into a service program that not only might not be necessary, but adds an unpredictable failure point (the LDS).

 

[Zung]

I hate the term entry level. I have been using entry level regulators for over 25 years, does this mean that I am a newb.

It's all about social status, superstar. Gotta do something about it. Luckily, mahjong has fully restored mine.

 

[BoltSnap]

Last I checked they had in the UK.

Do you mean a warranty on defects or the free service parts deals?

Suppose you buy new a SP Mk25 and 2xS600. Let's suppose that costs at least $800. Now you service it once a year at a cost of $25/stage for $75 a year total, but get free parts. Ten years later, you've paid $1550

Suppose you go get a similar HOG package for around $400 from DRIS. Over the next ten years, you get it serviced at $75/yr, plus $35/yr for parts. Ten years later, that's $1500.

Now, suppose you buy the same HOG package but service it yourself every year. That's $750 after ten years.

Now let's go HOG wild (sorry) and assume that because you only replace worn parts you might end up only spending on average $20/yr on service kits. Now you're at $600.

Now let's grab a Mk10 and two adjustable seconds. Say we pay $100. Let's get it serviced every year for $75 and $35 in parts. Wow, $1200!

However, we're resourceful and manage to find parts kits and do it ourselves. Ten years later, $450.

Then we realize that after a year and 120 dives the Mk10 is still in bloody great condition, with the same IP we set it to a year ago and near instant lockup, and that a 109 adjustable requires one o-ring and one DIY EPDM seat. Over ten years, you're looking at a service parts cost of maybe $70, for a grand total of $170.

This isn't a small saving we're talking about, it's an order of magnitude.

I fully appreciate that not everyone wants to work on their own gear, but even assuming an exorbitant purchase price of $100 (I think I paid $40 for my Mk10+2x109) and what I suspect is a fairly low price for the Mk25/2xS600, we're saving several hundred dollars. The 'free parts' locks you into a service program that not only might not be necessary, but adds an unpredictable failure point (the LDS).

You are assuming that the diver wants to do their own service. I'd say that the greater majority of regulator owners have no more interest/capability in servicing their scuba equipment than them changing the oil in their cars (let alone servicing their cars). They have no time, interest, capability or patience to do it. And for what? The money you are talking about is over 10 freaking years!!! For most people, the time it would take them to figure it all out, they are better spending that time either working on better tasks that would earn them better pay, time with family, diving or even sleeping!! At the same time, should the regulator require any part that is more than the O/H kits, you'll have to pay premium for it when original owners of the equipment get for free (piston updates for example). What about the supply of the service parts? Not everyone has connections and not everyone has the time.

One issue you need to consider, how sure are you that the used regulator you buy from ebay or the like wasn't involved in a major accident such as regulator falling down on the ground from the tank bench and possibly causing damage the buyer isn't aware of and can't tell the difference? You have no guarantees. Please note that we are talking about a person who is a newbie or is somebody who is not mechanically inclined and doesn't know anything about regulators at all (the majority of divers don't know much about regulators). One more interesting fact, regulator manufacturers occasionally update parts in their equipment for either safety reasons or for better performance/reliability over the lifetime of that particular equipment. These parts will be changed and installed for the original owner who has current warranty as a matter of fact for free. If the regulator isn't covered by the OEM warranty, you'll have to pay for for these updates/upgrades yourself and that will blow your calculations out the window. If you are a DIY type of person and you are not in close contact with people who know about these upgrades/updates, you probably won't know anything about these updates/upgrades.

BTW, do you know the performance difference between MK10, MK20 and MK25? Is there any difference?