Air2 / octo inflators

[beanojones]

This is very unfortunately true, and leads to injuries and deaths. I don't think it's something we should accept with fatalism.

That's an alarmist statement.

Acsending too fast does not lead to deaths. If it did, student divers, and rookie divers would be dropping like flies. (As would the instructors and guides who have to chase them.)

It might lead to problems, and it is definitely not a good thing, but saying it leads to injuries and deaths is just scare tactics. Someone who has managed to run out of air wants to be on the surface, NOW, and trying to slow them down will likely mean they leave you (and your alternate reg) for the surface, where the air is.

Well-trained and non-panicked divers don't need to share air. Badly trained and/or inexperienced and/or panicked divers do. OOA drills, where you signal that you are out of air (or really any OOA drills for that matter) tend to hide this fact in the interest of getting you to practice the functions. If the OOA diver is taking your reg (and not just bolting for the surface), they're taking it out of your mouth, without asking, and heading for the surface, double time. And if you want to ascend slowly, they'll be leaving you. Yes it would be great if everyone ascended slowly, and everyone did safety stops. (Then again, it would be even better if people looked at their gauges.) But the OOA diver is not thinking of best practices, they are thinking of being able to breathe, if they are thinking at all. Unless you want to scissor lock the OOA diver into immobility, you best be ready to move quickly. If you are deep enough that you want to do a safety stop, then maybe the OOA diver will have become functional again by the time you hit safety stop depth. If not, you can let them go to the surface alone (where they will not be able to inflate their BC either).

But remember, recreational diving is No-stop diving. So you do not need to do a safety stop. (But if you dove to a depth where you need to stop, you are also breaking the rules.)

Tunnel vision is not just a euphemism. Fight or Flight is not either. They are physiological responses, not amenable to control. When someone can suddenly not do something they have done all their life, every five seconds, every minute they have been alive, those responses happen. Fast. Wishing people did not have those physiological responses is ignoring facts. We cannot do any other physical activity without conscious effort except breathe. And suddenly being unable to do it triggers the fight or flight response. And it brings the world down to a very narrow point. Little things (like best diving practices) are not close to being on the menu.

If you are carrying an alternate air source, it is not for you. If you are not willing to risk the 'death and injury' that you think could come from a fast ascent, maybe you should not carry an alternate.*

*Not actually suggesting people should not carry one. Just pointing out that things you learn in training, are attempts to expose you to a situation. But when the situation happens, it's not an orderly event. And the only goal is to get that diver to the surface, where air is abundant.

Pro tip: Expect to have to rinse your reg extra good. Because people who swallow seawater usually vomit it right back into your reg. And people who are OOA drink seawater. Got no freshwater experience, maybe people are not as likely to vomit freshwater.

 

[imasinker]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but please check out this post after.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/265854-what-would-you-do.html#post4078727

Thanks.

 

[TSandM]

Beanojones, I'm sorry, but it's not alarmist. We had a fatality here in Puget Sound, the year after I learned to dive, which was due to the inability to control an air-sharing ascent; at about 15 feet, the two divers parted, and one of them went on to embolize and was dead when she hit the surface.

I have read accounts of people on this board who have gone out of gas, and calmly established air-sharing with a buddy or DM, and have not panicked and bolted for the surface.

It is certainly true that well-prepared and trained divers should not go out of gas. But going head down to look in a hole off Coz and having debris block the dip tube on the tank (as was reported by one SBer) is unavoidable. It is my sincere hope that regular practice of air-sharing and air-sharing ascents will make such an event more survivable, and that divers who have done that kind of training will not end up executing their ascent as you describe.

As I said, I don't think we should accept bolting to the surface with someone else's regulator as unavoidable.

 

[beanojones]

I understand that what we teach in OW is an attempt to get people comfortable with the process. But in the real world, trying to slow an OOA diver's ascent will result, as it did in the case you described, in the OOA diver breaking away, and bolting to the surface while holding their breath. That's what causes AGE.

You don't embolize from fast ascent. (Actually you can embolize while ascending fast, but you can embolize walking down the street, too.)

 

[RAWalker]

I understand that what we teach in OW is an attempt to get people comfortable with the process. But in the real world, trying to slow an OOA diver's ascent will result, as it did in the case you described, in the OOA diver breaking away, and bolting to the surface while holding their breath. That's what causes AGE.

You don't embolize from fast ascent. (Actually you can embolize while ascending fast, but you can embolize walking down the street, too.)

Actually fast ascent puts you at a significantly increased risk of embolizing! Althought there is no guarrantee and it is dependant on other factors such as, the amount of time at depth before accent.

 

[Thalassamania]

I use several different systems, depending on what I'm doing. At this point I still use my integrated auxiliary for most diving.

I really feel that any system will work, as long as you and your buddy are comfortable with it and have practiced. As far as embolisms are concerned, it is my understanding that decompression considerations notwithstanding, an ascent of even 300 fpm will not, in and of itself, cause an embolism ... holding your breath is the problem, not ascent rate.

 

[rx7diver]

A question for those using the OCTO inflator / AIR2 type regs. I have been looking at the various post regarding donation of octo's vs primary and something came to mind that those of you who use these could hopefully answer for me.

When faced with an OOA situation you now have donated your primary and are using the octo inflator. How easy are these to use in a situation like this where the inflator is bent round towards your face and you need to dump air upon ascending. Do you just use a pull dump instead. Would one have to make sure their BC is setup with pull dumps located on the left shoulder being your holding your buddy with your right hand as taugh? Is controlling your ascent any harder? If this is right then you would need to modify your BC or wing? It sounds like a whole different set of variables to deal with or am I missing something?

This may sound like a dumb question but I am wondering just how a diver could benefit from these, not to knock them at all!

Have any of you using these faced an OOA situation? How did you find it for ease of use? I am very curious as to what you have to say.

Thanks

Imasinker, I've dove with a Scubapro AIR II since c. 1987. It remains one of my favorite pieces of gear, along with my Scubapro Stab Jacket, for my non-technical dives, and I highly recommend it--them--for several reasons! I've written this before on SB. I've never participated in a real OOA emergency while using this gear, though.

I've never had buoyancy problems while wearing an AIR II, even while breathing off of an AIR II, even when another diver was breathing off of my primary and I was "controlling" him. If breathing off the AIR II while ascending, I prefer to vent air from my BC by using the AIR II (rather than the BC's overpressure relief valve): I take the AIR II from my mouth, raise it slightly in my left hand, depress the appropriate button, and "watch" the air escape from my BC through it. This is done quickly, and the AIR II is returned quickly to my mouth so that I can finish exhaling through it (to clear it) and then inhale if/when I need to. This approach works even when I am wearing a drysuit. Because of my very thorough initial open water and subsequent rescue and technical scuba training, I am careful to breath normally (as "normally" as possible, that is) and to instinctively release bubbles through my mouth whenever I don't have a regulator/snorkle in it--even in highly stressful situations, even when "controlling" a distressed diver--so I minimize my build up of CO2 and I never have to think about not holding my breath when I've taken the AIR II from my mouth to vent air from my BC while ascending.

Bottom line, diving with an AIR II is very straightforward, and no modification to your BC is necessary. In particular, you do NOT have to add a pull dump. (BTW, I strongly recommend AGAINST pull dumps.)

One other thing: I've had to disconnect my AIR II from its LP inflator hose as a precaution while diving when my first stage iced up and experienced a massive free-flow. (I kept breathing off of the free-flowing primary.) Again, solid training meant that orally inflating my BC was no problem for me even in the midst of all the noise and bubbles. And solid training also meant that If I had had to buddy breath my primary when my AIR II was disconnected, this too would have been no problem.

Keep in mind, I am not special. I imagine that any of the divers on SB who received thorough training and who continue to practice the skills learned during this training can do any of what I described above.

I hope this helps.

Safe Diving.

 

[John_B]

dumping air is easy, you just pull down on the thing.?????

I had the exact same thought. A pull dump exhaust on an Air2-type alternate? You have *got* to be ***tin' me... But its OK because "all the cool divers use them"???



Whatever anyone decides to use, at least make sure that you actually practice doing ascents with it.

You don't embolize from fast ascent. (Actually you can embolize while ascending fast, but you can embolize walking down the street, too.)

No offense beano, but I'm taking the ER doc's word on this over yours. :mooner:

 

[Thalassamania]

I had the exact same thought. A pull dump exhaust on an Air2-type alternate? You have *got* to be ***tin' me... But its OK because "all the cool divers use them"???



Whatever anyone decides to use, at least make sure that you actually practice doing ascents with it.


No offense beano, but I'm taking the ER doc's word on this over yours. :mooner:

Just because you think the ER Doc told you that doesn't make it so. You might have misunderstood, it is not the rate of ascent that causes an AGE.

 

[John_B]

Just because you think the ER Doc told you that doesn't make it so. You might have misunderstood, it is not the rate of ascent that causes an AGE.

I think beano and you are assuming that's what was said. IIRC, the point was that a diver who suddenly (and possibly needlessly) ascended in an OOG situation suffered an embolism.

As I understand it, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, gas embolisms in divers are usually due to pulmonary barotrauma where the lung sacs burst due to overexpansion (introducing air bubbles into the blood stream), which is caused by a diver holding their breath or not breathing sufficiently during a rapid ascent. If that's true (and checking my notes from a course I took, I believe it is) then you are technically correct that its its not the rate of ascent, but insufficient breathing during the sudden change in pressure (brought on by the rapid ascent).

Which at the end of the day is really an unimportant distinction in the case of the person who died during a cluster**** of an airshare with some dual-use gimmick that this diver and her buddy probably never practiced using. That, plus a healthy dose of gas management might've gone a long way toward making this particular incident a non-event. The same could probably be said for using a separate inflator and alternate air source.

As always, YMMV.