Battery charger for Genesis and other DPVs

[stuartv]

A gentleman named Drew Wilson posted about this in a FB group I'm in. Thank you to him for posting and sharing his info about it! I'm not sure if he's on SB or not.

I don't see any discussion about it here on SB, so ... here is some. LOL

I just got one of these chargers. They market it as being for an e-bike. The Cycle Satiator. It was something like $375 with shipping and the cables I wanted.

They have all kinds of adapters so you can connect it a ton of stuff.

Satiator - Grin Products - Product Info

The 72V (nominal) model will charge up to a max actual of 103V.

If you’re gonna have a big boy scooter, you might want to get one of these chargers. Or maybe other scooters come with chargers that are as smart as this one?

My Genesis 2.1 is a max of 75V when fully charged. I got the 72V model of this charger. They have an adapter for connecting it to the Genesis charging cable (a 4 pin GX16 XLR F). I.e. and to be clear, the Satiator 4-pin GX16 XLR adapter does not connect the charger to the charging port on the scooter. It connects the charger to the last part of the charging cable that comes with the Genesis charger. THAT cable is what connects to the Genesis charging port.

It works perfectly.

The beauty of it is:

• It will run up to 5A, so it’s faster than the Genesis charger (max of 4A).
• It is totally quiet, unlike the Genesis whisperjet charger.
• You can setup different profiles on it. You can do that manually, from the front panel, or you can download their software suite to your PC, set them up in there, and then download them to the charger. You can also update the charger firmware from there. If you're going to use your PC, make sure you also order their TRS-to-USB cable.
• The charger can do Lithium-ion, NiMH, and lead acid batteries, if you care.
• It's claimed to be watertight, as it is intended that it CAN be semi-permanently mounted on the frame of an e-bike and hard-wired to the bike's battery, for easy plug-in charging. I guess that could be handy if you needed to use it to charge your scooter on a boat.

I setup 5 profiles in it, with one as the default. All for the Genesis.

The one I set as Default is used when you connect it, if you don’t go manually choose a different charging profile. You don't have to set one as Default and you probably wouldn't if you were going to use the charger on devices with different battery chemistries or different max voltages.

I set up the default so it automatically slow charges (3A) my Genesis up to 67V (80% charge). Perfect to come home from a dive trip, plop the scooter on the charger (assuming it was run down low) and just walk away.

But, I made other profiles for slow charge to 100%, fast charge to either 80 or 100%, and a profile to charge it to its actual max (75.6V, instead of 74.8), if I ever want to do something where the normal “100%” charge is marginal. According to Drew's post on FB, @Jon Nellis set the Genesis for a max charge of 74.8V to keep it under the EU Low Voltage Directive limit of 75V, "but you can go up to 75.6V (AT YOUR OWN RISK), if you change the cell and pack voltage limits in the BMS parameters. You pick up a little more capacity, but higher voltages also shorten cell life, so that's the trade off."

What is an extra 0.8V in this case? An extra 38 Wh of total battery capacity? I don't know. Probably not generally useful ... enough to be worth shortening battery life like that.

Drew also relayed that John said the Genesis is protected inside against charging over 5A. I'm waiting to hear what the max safe actual charging current is. Can I charge at 5A, if I'm in a hurry? Or do I need to run it at some lower current limit, to be sure it doesn't trip the internal protection inside the scooter?

And, is charging at 3A actually beneficial, versus 4A (or higher)? Maybe I really only need profiles for charging to 80% and 100%, but not separate ones for fast versus slow.

 

[tbone1004]

if the BMS is set for a max of 5a then whether it is safe or not is irrelevant, BMS will disconnect from charging. I'm sure the cells can handle a much higher charge rate as 0.5c is a typical max charge rate for most lithium chemistries with 0.3c as kind of a preferred charge rate. Since it's in a sealed and insulated container I'd say as slow as you can practically charge it is better. Not sure what the kwh of your pack is but I would try to keep the charge rate under 0.3x of the pack.

As far as the max voltage goes, the one potential advantage is it can top balance the cells a bit better so like once a year it may not be the worst idea to top balance the battery pack. If you know you aren't going to need the extra capacity.

Personally I would have 2 charge profiles loaded, fast charge to 80% and fast charge to 100%. Use the 80% as a rule to charge to all the time, and only use the 100% if I was really concerned about the run time or after a deep discharge. Any time the pack gets much below 20% I would take it up to 100% for balancing. If I'm cycling it between 20% and 80% then it doesn't really matter and you can top balance a couple times a year and it will be happy.

 

[stuartv]

if the BMS is set for a max of 5a then whether it is safe or not is irrelevant, BMS will disconnect from charging. I'm sure the cells can handle a much higher charge rate as 0.5c is a typical max charge rate for most lithium chemistries with 0.3c as kind of a preferred charge rate. Since it's in a sealed and insulated container I'd say as slow as you can practically charge it is better. Not sure what the kwh of your pack is but I would try to keep the charge rate under 0.3x of the pack.

As far as the max voltage goes, the one potential advantage is it can top balance the cells a bit better so like once a year it may not be the worst idea to top balance the battery pack. If you know you aren't going to need the extra capacity.

Personally I would have 2 charge profiles loaded, fast charge to 80% and fast charge to 100%. Use the 80% as a rule to charge to all the time, and only use the 100% if I was really concerned about the run time or after a deep discharge. Any time the pack gets much below 20% I would take it up to 100% for balancing. If I'm cycling it between 20% and 80% then it doesn't really matter and you can top balance a couple times a year and it will be happy.

The question is: Will it charge reliably at 5A? Or will it be constantly causing the BMS to disconnect and reconnect? Or trip some other internal protection? If either of the latter, then do I run it at, say 4.8A? 4.5A?

The battery pack is 850Wh. So, that (0.3x) would be 255W? The Genesis charger runs at about 300W (I think), during the bulk charging phase, then slows way down for the last 10%.

I think this charger is supposed to deliver a max of 360W, and I know it is a max of 5A (at least, for this voltage range). So, still well under 0.5c?

 

[Whitrzac]

I would eat my hat if the BMS kicked out with anything less than 10a. Usually higher end BMSs can charge just as fast as discharge.

I've been using an icharger x12 for a couple years now for everything. I have profiles setup for all my lights, vests, canisters, DPVs, etc

iCharger X12

This is a Junsi X12 Lilo, LiPo, Life, NiMH, NiCD DC Battery Charger is a palm-sized charger that's packed with an unbelievable 1100W and 30A of power packed into a miniature frame, full of features only seen in advanced chargers.The charger shares the accessible and easy-to-understand user...

www.helidirect.com

 

[stuartv]

I would eat my hat if the BMS kicked out with anything less than 10a. Usually higher end BMSs can charge just as fast as discharge.

I've been using an icharger x12 for a couple years now for everything. I have profiles setup for all my lights, vests, canisters, DPVs, etc

iCharger X12

This is a Junsi X12 Lilo, LiPo, Life, NiMH, NiCD DC Battery Charger is a palm-sized charger that's packed with an unbelievable 1100W and 30A of power packed into a miniature frame, full of features only seen in advanced chargers.The charger shares the accessible and easy-to-understand user...

www.helidirect.com

On FB, Drew said this: “There are relays in the scooter that will pop at 5 amps according to Jon.”

That’s all I know.

Now time to look at the charger you posted!

 

[stuartv]

I would eat my hat if the BMS kicked out with anything less than 10a. Usually higher end BMSs can charge just as fast as discharge.

I've been using an icharger x12 for a couple years now for everything. I have profiles setup for all my lights, vests, canisters, DPVs, etc

iCharger X12

This is a Junsi X12 Lilo, LiPo, Life, NiMH, NiCD DC Battery Charger is a palm-sized charger that's packed with an unbelievable 1100W and 30A of power packed into a miniature frame, full of features only seen in advanced chargers.The charger shares the accessible and easy-to-understand user...

www.helidirect.com

That charger says it has a max output of 50V. Maybe I just don’t understand, but doesn’t that mean it would not work for a scooter like a Genesis, that charges to 75V?

 

[Jona Silverstein]

That charger says it has a max output of 50V. Maybe I just don’t understand, but doesn’t that mean it would not work for a scooter like a Genesis, that charges to 75V?

Correct. These are limited to 12s. I actually have a couple that we use for our test bench. Its tied into a larger battery bank so we can use the regenerative discharging and cycle the energy back and forth instead of using our higher wattage discharger that dumps it as heat.

Ive been looking for something higher voltage than an X12 for a long time and I am yet to find something that is better. These chargers are intriguing but as stated, its a charger and underpowered in my case. Regardless of pack size every pack is tested at 0.3C Charge and 0.5C Discharge so its not uncommon that 800W is running.

BUT as a charger that thing is pretty BA. I am yet to find a good and reliable charger with an adjustable SOC designed for the end user that isn't just a regular bench PSU.

 

[rjack321]

You can reset the max charge voltage in the BMS app and use the default charger. I almost never charge mine to the stock 97-98% nevermind 100%

 

[grantmac]

A gentleman named Drew Wilson posted about this in a FB group I'm in. Thank you to him for posting and sharing his info about it! I'm not sure if he's on SB or not.

I don't see any discussion about it here on SB, so ... here is some. LOL

I just got one of these chargers. They market it as being for an e-bike. The Cycle Satiator. It was something like $375 with shipping and the cables I wanted.

They have all kinds of adapters so you can connect it a ton of stuff.

Satiator - Grin Products - Product Info

The 72V (nominal) model will charge up to a max actual of 103V.

If you’re gonna have a big boy scooter, you might want to get one of these chargers. Or maybe other scooters come with chargers that are as smart as this one?

My Genesis 2.1 is a max of 75V when fully charged. I got the 72V model of this charger. They have an adapter for connecting it to the Genesis charging cable (a 4 pin GX16 XLR F). I.e. and to be clear, the Satiator 4-pin GX16 XLR adapter does not connect the charger to the charging port on the scooter. It connects the charger to the last part of the charging cable that comes with the Genesis charger. THAT cable is what connects to the Genesis charging port.

It works perfectly.

The beauty of it is:

• It will run up to 5A, so it’s faster than the Genesis charger (max of 4A).
• It is totally quiet, unlike the Genesis whisperjet charger.
• You can setup different profiles on it. You can do that manually, from the front panel, or you can download their software suite to your PC, set them up in there, and then download them to the charger. You can also update the charger firmware from there. If you're going to use your PC, make sure you also order their TRS-to-USB cable.
• The charger can do Lithium-ion, NiMH, and lead acid batteries, if you care.
• It's claimed to be watertight, as it is intended that it CAN be semi-permanently mounted on the frame of an e-bike and hard-wired to the bike's battery, for easy plug-in charging. I guess that could be handy if you needed to use it to charge your scooter on a boat.

I setup 5 profiles in it, with one as the default. All for the Genesis.

The one I set as Default is used when you connect it, if you don’t go manually choose a different charging profile. You don't have to set one as Default and you probably wouldn't if you were going to use the charger on devices with different battery chemistries or different max voltages.

I set up the default so it automatically slow charges (3A) my Genesis up to 67V (80% charge). Perfect to come home from a dive trip, plop the scooter on the charger (assuming it was run down low) and just walk away.

But, I made other profiles for slow charge to 100%, fast charge to either 80 or 100%, and a profile to charge it to its actual max (75.6V, instead of 74.8), if I ever want to do something where the normal “100%” charge is marginal. According to Drew's post on FB, @Jon Nellis set the Genesis for a max charge of 74.8V to keep it under the EU Low Voltage Directive limit of 75V, "but you can go up to 75.6V (AT YOUR OWN RISK), if you change the cell and pack voltage limits in the BMS parameters. You pick up a little more capacity, but higher voltages also shorten cell life, so that's the trade off."

What is an extra 0.8V in this case? An extra 38 Wh of total battery capacity? I don't know. Probably not generally useful ... enough to be worth shortening battery life like that.

Drew also relayed that John said the Genesis is protected inside against charging over 5A. I'm waiting to hear what the max safe actual charging current is. Can I charge at 5A, if I'm in a hurry? Or do I need to run it at some lower current limit, to be sure it doesn't trip the internal protection inside the scooter?

And, is charging at 3A actually beneficial, versus 4A (or higher)? Maybe I really only need profiles for charging to 80% and 100%, but not separate ones for fast versus slow.

Can you post (or DM) a link to that discussion? I'm trying to figure out a charging solution for my recently purchased used Genesis 1200.

 

[stuartv]

Can you post (or DM) a link to that discussion? I'm trying to figure out a charging solution for my recently purchased used Genesis 1200.

I think this is what you're asking for.


It's a post in the DPV Innovations group. You might have to join the group to see the post.