Buddy Diving Question

[T-bolt Diver]

I would like to post a question to all (since there are quite a few divers on the board with differing opinions).

My question is this: If dive buddies should begin to see law suits over "not performing to someones expectations", would you continue to dive with a buddy.

In other words, A diver is out on the reef with someone they casually know from diving... the buddy hase a problem and races to the surface causing injury to themselves. Three days later the diver get a summons that they are being sued for not "being close enough to help".

I know this is going to eventually happen. There are just too many litigation prone people out there.

How 'bout some feedback guys (and girls)?

 

[WillAbbott]

It's a scary thought to think that might actually happen. I wonder how well the suit would go over. As I see no Legal obligation for one to be close and to help, unless they are a DM/Instructor working as such. (hopefully a lawyer will pipe in). But I would emagine that what would happen would be it would goto court and a judge would rule (esspecially if you got a good lawyer) that you had no obligation to be close or to help. Similar to rendering CPR/First Aid. A normal person has no Legal obligation to do so, however if they do, and are trained they are can not be held liable for injuries caused (the good samaritan law/rule)

IF it came about that this could happen, I probably would be VERY carefull about dive buddies, I would most likely only dive with buddies I know well, and have dove with countless times already. Or ones I know wouldn't sue. It would probably mean I'd dive less, or more solo (which I won't like, I enjoy having a buddy along, makes it more fun, IMHO) I'm sure IF this happened, we would see insurance, or something come about to help us not be held liable, or that would cover our liability.

But to be honest I can't see it ever actually happening, or winning, IMO I just can't see how you could convince a judge that the buddy HAD to be close and HAD to help (course thats probably why I'm not a lawyer, a really good lawyer might be able to win this) But as I said, I would think a judge would be very hard to convince, as there is not LAW or true Rule one must be close and render aid/assitance. And they didn't force the person to dive, they did it of their own free will. It would be like jumping off a cliff into a pond, and trying to sue the person who stood up top and watched but did nothing, they aren't responsible for your actions, or to try and stop you from doing something stupid, regardless of how close they are to you. Theese days you're usually better off to NOT try and help, becuase if you help and help incorrectly and cause more problems you tend to get into trouble....


Just my .02cents and Humble Opinion, hopefully a lawyer will help us out on how likely a suit like this could be won, I'd like to know out of curiosity.

I'm going to vote for still use the buddy system, as I probably would, I just would be MUCH more picky about the buddies I would dive with.

 

[RICHinNC]

I have looked long and hard for the article but I just cant find it. I am pretty dang sure there has already been such a lawsuit. I ...being old and having a decrepid mind...just can not remember how it came out.

I do know i have read quite a few articles in various dive mags on line and off where lawyer input has been it is a very likely scenario to start happening.

A northwest mag on line has a section...."ask the lawyer".... and one lad wrote in that he and a buddy were doing some shore diving and he asked his buddies girlfriend to watch their spare tanks and gear. When they came back up...all was gone. She had gone to a food vendor and while gone everything disappeared. The lad was asking the lawer that by her consenting to watch and "guard" the equipement...is she responsible for replacing it since the gear was stolen. He ... the lad....felt she should replace all the gear since she gave her word she would watch it and did not. The lawyer said he probably would not win in court and not to waste his time and money.

In that my job keeps me on the road quite a bit, i often get on a boat at the last minute and have no idea who the other divers are. Few ever do an equipment review at all. And, not all buddy pairs have been diving with each other a long time so an equipment check and review would be especially prudent. more often than i like to think about...when i get paired up with someone and want to do a good predive check...they look at me like i am weird....i wear a pony bottle on all dives (because i think all dives are solo...buddie or no buddie) ... and every time i pull it out and hook it up someone asks me what the heck that thing is.

i would think a main problem...lawyer wise....with the buddie issue would be exacerbated because of all the agencies paranoia about having to have a buddy before you dive. Not a lawyer here either...but to me the vigor with which they push having a buddy or dont dive implicitly places a responsibility on each buddy whether it is wanted...accepted...or not. Any comments on this thought??

dive safe...dive prepared...

 

[Lead_carrier]

T-bolt Diver once bubbled...
My question is this: If dive buddies should begin to see law suits over "not performing to someones expectations", would you continue to dive with a buddy.


I know this is going to eventually happen. There are just too many litigation prone people out there.

Think it's going to start??? Go to Rodales magazine. WWW.SCUBADIVING.COM and start reading the lessons for life. It has been happening for a long time. Even happens in families. It is bad that so many seem to be money happy and looks for a quick buck and/or a way to blame someone else. When I dive for pleasure if it isn't with someone that already knows I'm an instructor, the only cards they ever see are my advanced and Nitrox.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Anybody can be sued for anything. If you are sued whether you win or not it's still going to cost you. No matter what I have to get up in the morning and do something so I don't let it worry me too much.

If I am not working I am picky about who I dive with though. If a diver doesn't care enough about me to progress at least to rescue training I won't dive with them unless I'm being paid. The acception, of course, is new divers who haven't had time yet.

When not working I don't try to hide the fact that I'm an instructor. If someone gets in trouble I will do my best to help anyway. The other thing is if there is an accident I bet they find out what your training level is regardless of what card you used. Using your OW card might help you show you didn't establish an instructor/student duty of care but I do that by making certain I let people know I am not working.

I hate to say it but I don't really care to dive where tourist diving is going on anymore. I have seen too many crazy things and am on pins and needles the whole time and can't enjouy myselfe anyway. I won't even dive the local quarries anymore unless I'm teaching or attending a social outing like getting together with the KPP or something.

Rodales has printed articles that suggested solo diving is the answer. I say they are clueless and I won't have that rag in my shop or in my house.

 

[DiverBuoy]

Thinking about it from the selfish perspective. In our modern society people are motivated by money. If buddies had to take their position more seriously because it was spelled out to them the consequences of their actions from a legal perspective. Do you think they might pay better attention to what instructors are telling them about the buddy system and actually use the techniques - maybe even ask some questions and expect some role playing scenarios to increase their skills in this area?

I think yes. It is too bad that money has to be the reason - instead of love of fellow man or genuine concern for thy neighbor. But if it produces a more serious generation of buddies - I'm all for it!

 

[SARmedic]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
Thinking about it from the selfish perspective. In our modern society people are motivated by money. If buddies had to take their position more seriously because it was spelled out to them the consequences of their actions from a legal perspective. Do you think they might pay better attention to what instructors are telling them about the buddy system and actually use the techniques - maybe even ask some questions and expect some role playing scenarios to increase their skills in this area?

I think yes. It is too bad that money has to be the reason - instead of love of fellow man or genuine concern for thy neighbor. But if it produces a more serious generation of buddies - I'm all for it!

Well stated. We have become way to sue happy lately. Pretty soon policemen will be suing their partners for not backing them up properly if we continue at this rate.

You just need to pick your buddy well and be comfortable diving with them. They are there as a safety precaution, not to keep you from being stupid or careless. Bottom line, a dive buddy is there to help if they can, not insurance against any problem that may arise.

 

[Wreck/Tec]

Think, this has the potential of really devistating the sport. If this were to become the law of the land, where would entry people go for experience. I for one wouldn't want to loose all I've worked for........I certainly would be more peticular, and the forbiden solo dive would become as common as the aluminum 80. Some have mentioned earlier about examples already in existance, I've read some my self. I can't help but think this would reverberate up and down the line from newbe to instructor. We are being protected from our selves ! Diving, gun control, SUVs, sounds stupid! It's happening now, and it could happen here.............. It may appear in the form of insurance.......We may be taxed on air?........Some forms of activity have annual renewable fees, licenses. Who knows ?
Wreck/Tec

 

[runvus4]

I believe that there have already been suits over what legal responsibility "buddies" have (cases were made by deceased kin AFAIK), and buddies do have some legal liability. The legal liability is predicated upon negligence.

You may be on good terms with your buddy and happy to assume legal liability in relation to them, but you have to also consider the buddies relations should the dive go very wrong.

If things continue in the US with suit happy lawyers, soon either you will have to get "release" forms from your buddies (esp ones that you get shackled together with by a dive boat capt, but then they will also assume some liability for hooking you up in the first place), or there will have to be some sort of "industry standard" that is either agreed upon by the diving community at large, explicitly outlined and known in general (ie taught in training classes to all divers and part of some form of agreement for obtaining certifications) outlining buddy legal resonsabilities and liabilities, or legally mandated.

Lawsuits aside, you should always take your duties as a "dive buddy" seriously and try to follow all safety precautions, and never exaggerate your diving experience or skills.

 

[Rick Murchison]

T-bolt Diver once bubbled...
A diver is out on the reef with someone they casually know from diving... the buddy has a problem and races to the surface causing injury to themselves. Three days later the diver gets a summons that they are being sued for not "being close enough to help".

In this case I would refer the lawyer to my firm, "Smith, Wesson, Colt & Ruger."
Rick