Catalina Diver died today w/ Instructor

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Sorry about that LeeAnn, I thought I had replied and quoted the person who posted #181, Bubbletrubble.
My original post (#168) was about the condemnation of the instructor by some of those people participating in this thread. I found it senseless to declare that the instructor must have done something wrong because a "good" instructor should "always" be able to control any situation. I outlined a situation in the pool in which a very strong student got to the surface even though I was prepared for trouble, reacted instantly (because I had my hand on the student's BC) but could not prevent the student from bolting. I hope that clears up my mistake.
 
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@stedel: Full disclosure here: I'm not a scuba instructor. I don't have 1,000+ dives. I have no experience with scuba accident analysis. However, I do have a fair amount of teaching experience. Based on my credentials, I'll have to live with the possibility that you will choose to ignore everything I write.

The example you give is a good one. Based on the physical dimensions of the student, you would have us believe that there was nothing that you could do to prevent your student's rapid uncontrolled ascent. Let me blunt here. This kind of hopeless, it's-out-of-my-hands kind of thinking might help assuage your conscience but it does little to prevent similar situations in the future.

I would probably have to agree with you that, in your example, once the student decided to bolt, there was very little that you could do. But what about modifying the training so that the possibility of this is minimized? More specifically, create exercises to build the confidence of the student in a stepwise manner. For instance, to help set up the student for success with the mask clearing exercise, one could:
  • Do some breathing exercises at the surface first. Breathe in through the mouth and out through the nose. Teach the student to be relaxed in the water.
  • Allow the student to do some snorkeling at the surface, first with a mask and then without.
  • Have the student breath off of his regulator just below the surface of the water with a mask...then without a mask.
  • Have him breathe off of his regulator at the bottom of the shallow end (3 feet) of the pool with his mask...and then without it.
  • Have him do the mask-clearing drill in 3 feet of water.
  • Have him repeat all of these exercises until he is really comfortable with them (mastery?) before moving to the deep end of the pool for the mask-clearing exercise.
I think the last point is key. By becoming proficient at all of these incremental exercises, the student greatly reduces the probability that he will bolt to the surface during mask-clearing at the deep end of the pool.

It is possible to do these exercises and adopt such an approach to training even when affiliated with an agency that, by most accounts, has the most watered-down set of basic OW requirements in the industry. I know at least one PADI instructor who does this. He doesn't teach large classes. His classes can take several weeks (sometimes months) to complete, but after the confined water dives in basic OW class he's confident that his students won't bolt during the OW dives. He also insists on having a pool session at the beginning of each AOW class during which every student performs all of the skills that he was asked to do in basic OW, including the swim and tread water tests. He then proceeds to schedule the navigation and night dives prior to the deep dive.

I think that the PADI instructor I know is a good one. He has taken steps, above and beyond what is required by his agency, to ensure that his students will be successful...that they will be safe, confident divers. This doesn't eliminate the possibility altogether that his students will succumb to panic under water, but it dramatically reduces the chances of that happening.

And before someone reiterates a motion for splitting this training discussion off to another thread, I'd like to state my case for leaving this post and the discussion that follows here in the A&I forum. The issue of training bears direct relevance to this tragedy. To say otherwise, is myopic and downright dangerous. I don't think we should be throwing up our hands and saying: "Well, we did everything we could do. Bad stuff happens. It's tragic that this student died. Let's not talk about it any longer for fear of hurting the instructor's feelings." It's not an issue of "innocent until proven guilty" or "guilty until proven innocent" or being "insensitive." If we don't take an objective look at the chain of events influencing the outcome, then we are doomed to have more students die during dive training...needlessly. The loss is great for the individual, tragic for family/friends/loved ones, and traumatic for the instructor/DMs involved. I don't think anyone wants that.

It's my understanding that certain towns and cities wait for "X" number of accidents or fatalities to occur at an intersection before putting up a stoplight. Perhaps we should be looking at changing the dive curriculum in light of this tragedy. Perhaps the training agency in question should require a pool session (during which all of the basic OW skills are reviewed and swim + treading water test are done) before any AOW dives are conducted.

Speaking as an instructor with over 30 years of diving experience I can state quite firmly from personal experience that you cannot always control everything even if you can see it happening and take immediate steps to remedy a situation. Fortunately for me the event I could not control took place in the pool. I am 6'3" 220 lbs., I had a student who was a football player, 6' 5" 250 lbs. (at least) and all muscle. We were doing a mask flood exercise, he could not clear his mask, I had a hand on his BC, I saw his eyes go wide and grabbed him before he even started moving, he got his legs under him and we were on the surface of the pool in very short order. There are things beyond ANYONE'S ability to control. I am NOT speculating on what occurred in the incident but I must take offense at anyone's statements implying "guilty until proven innocent," or that the instructor must have done something wrong or that an instructor just "should" have been able to deal with any situation or that instructor just isn't a "good" instructor. Notwithstanding anyone's long experience, to make such sweeping statements is not reasonable.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised (although I am) that someone would immediately call into question MY thoroughness and qualifications as an instructor when presenting a simple scenario about control. When I conduct my confined water training sessions, I start in three feet of water. Every single one of my students demonstrates repetition and MASTERY of mask clearing, regulator recovery and clearing, air sharing and so on in three feet of water before we repeat all the same exercises and skills in deeper confined water. When I introduce them to scuba, they breathe on the regulator with and without a mask (they have previously breathed on a snorkel with and without a mask) I am a Los Angeles County, NAUI, PADI, CMAS, Handicapped Scuba Association of America and formerly a YMCA instructor with over 30 years of diving experience. Would you still care to question my preparation of my students or my ability control same?
I know that you are responding to Bubbletrubble here, but what you are saying (and the way that you are saying it) cries for an answer. You describe an incident in which a diver got away from whilst, "doing a mask flood exercise, he could not clear his mask, I had a hand on his BC, I saw his eyes go wide and grabbed him before he even started moving, he got his legs under him and we were on the surface of the pool in very short order. There are things beyond ANYONE'S ability to control."

I have to agree with you that once the gorilla you describe was moving there was nothing that anyone could have done to stop him, so it was a damn good thing that you were very shallow water, else the incident might have had a very different outcome.

All that I want to remark on is that in forty-odd years of instruction I've never had a student "bolt" on me. I, personally, would see having that happen, in and of itself, as a serious failure on my part, even if the student was unharmed physically. I would feel that I had not carefully, step by step, each tiny step a success, prepared the student for the performance of the skill; and I'd feel that it was a failure on my part if I did not detect incipient problems and deal with them long before they turn into a "bolt," or, in fact, long before they turn into anything that the student might even see as a failure on his or her part.

Have I avoided this sort of problem just through perspicacity and skill? Probably not, there may well be an element of, "luck of the draw," here. But when I teach I try my hardest to stack the deck in my favor, and that is why I only teach Scripps Model 100 hour courses.
 
From personal, first-hand experience I can tell you all that when doing a mask clearing drill, the instructor should be ready to grab the student, arms outstretched, hands open, with eyes on the student's face and on the spot where the instructor will grab. I know this because that is just how quickly my instructor grabbed me "way back when." I do not recall if I was bolting or moving in response to the cold water on my fact, but I do know that he grabbed me instantaneously. BTW: Thanks for that.
 
Correct. For those of you who have not experienced this, when you look at you pressure gauge it will deflect to almost zero with each breath.

Unfortunately, this simple time-honored test does not work with today's digital AI computers.
 
How do they respond to that problem?
 
How do they respond to that problem?

They don't really respond quickly enough to give much indication, beyond flickering numbers as you breath... which, it turns out, is normal.

Yet another reason why I have an analog SPG backing up my wireless "convenience" unit.
 
Or just get the valve right in the first place, that is a kinda' bush move.
 
I have to admit that with everyone always wanting to check the valve and mess with it that I always reach back and recheck it as I submerge.
 
They don't really respond quickly enough to give much indication, beyond flickering numbers as you breath... which, it turns out, is normal..

Except that if the valve is fully on, the numbers DON'T flicker down and then back UP - the psi value remains the same or goes down slightly.

If the valve is partially on or is completely off but the hose is still pressurized, the numbers will flicker down AND UP if you breathe on the reg. That flickering tells you the valve is not fully open, even with a computer. It is certainly true for my Sherwood Wisdom.

Looking at the gauge while taking a breath and evaluating the effect does work with computers, at least some of them. I check my valve just before I splash though, just like Thal. I learned both those tricks on SB. :)
 

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