Cave Certs Expiration

[NAM001]

I hear what you are saying. Cave divers with minimum training can't be expected to dive within their certification levels now so we should extend the course to do a zero to hero cave curriculum. If there aren't any standards left to break they won't be breaking them. Got it.

As I see it there is no reason you cant give a course that is cavern and intro. give them a card that does not expire, at least not in a year. 2-3 perhaps would be more reasonable. Cavern card s should never expire Then come back and show proficency and do apprentice and perhaps some or all of full cave. The idea that people will dive beyond their training is nonsence,,,, because holding a card or not does not change that mentality. Its human nature...Divers have done nothing but dive beyond their training from day one with the OW card. Everyone supports doing so. Its an economic fact of life. Why would we expect that when it comes to caves that limits will be respected. Why should they look at things differently when caves are the topic? Probably the worse thing you can do is expire a card. Once you have been in and passed intro what fear if any is left. At that point,,,, what is being told to the diver with an expired card is that It is a pure money thing.. With that attitude you dive beyond your training because its another 600$ to get the same card again before you spend another 600$ to go to the next step. Canceling cards discourages continued training. Unlike rec cert cards, no one turns you away if you don't have the right cave card. Attitudes for caves vary a lot depending where you are from. Many I talk to when mentioning caves, generate images of national geographic pictorials and expectations of grand ball rooms and places that are one of a kind. A certain amount of romance of sorts if you will.

I may go back and continue my training, If I do,,, it will not be with any group that has expiring cards or view cave training as if it were preparation for an Olympic event.

 

[Caveeagle]

^^Yes,,

I see no reason why a cavern, Intro, or Apprentice cert should expire. What if the diver decides to stay active at that level of training for some personal reason? ..With that logic, why does your Full Cave cert not expire if you don't go on to take advanced cave, Tri-mix etc.

Let's be honest here, diving within your limits is a personal choice. Especially with cave diving, there is very little to stop someone from pushing the limits. Most of us know where rules are enforced, and where they are not. If anything, enforcement is much less now than in the early 90's. I remember avoiding both Ginnie and Peacock, because I did my Intro with doubles and I would get hassled at both locations unless I had an instructor with me. (which I often did).

A Christmas day, double fatality comes to mind... Where both were diving several levels beyond their certification. So, how the heck did they get all the gear, mix, access... but no (formal) training? I humbly suggest.. that making the training confusing and an outrageous PITA was at least a small part of it.

I think we all want to improve standards and reduce accidents, but I think there is a risk of discouraging people from taking on more formal training.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

^^Yes,,

I see no reason why a cavern, Intro, or Apprentice cert should expire. What if the diver decides to stay active at that level of training for some personal reason? ..With that logic, why does your Full Cave cert not expire if you don't go on to take advanced cave, Tri-mix etc.

Let's be honest here, diving within your limits is a personal choice. Especially with cave diving, there is very little to stop someone from pushing the limits. Most of us know where rules are enforced, and where they are not. If anything, enforcement is much less now than in the early 90's. I remember avoiding both Ginnie and Peacock, because I did my Intro with doubles and I would get hassled at both locations unless I had an instructor with me. (which I often did).

A Christmas day, double fatality comes to mind... Where both were diving several levels beyond their certification. So, how the heck did they get all the gear, mix, access... but no (formal) training? I humbly suggest.. that making the training confusing and an outrageous PITA was at least a small part of it.

I think we all want to improve standards and reduce accidents, but I think there is a risk of discouraging people from taking on more formal training.

This is a repeating theme. People not willing to follow the rules. The risk lies with the people going beyond their training. That falls within the realm of personal responsbility (another notion of a bygone era these days) it does not lie with the certifying agencies.

The cave doesn't grade on a curve. The training isn't based on the lowest common denominator, it's not confusing (I don't believe), it's demanding and each level builds upon itself.. SOME people simply shouldn't be cave diving and that's hard to hear.

On a side note, I want to reiterate that the CDS no longer has expiring certifications according to it's website and I haven't received a card from the NACD in over two years now so I'm not sure they count anymore. Someone mentioned that GUE cards expire if you can't show proof of x amount of dives.

 

[kensuf]

Wow.. Seven pages and this thread is off the rails.

To the OP:

NASE does not issue cavern/intro/apprentice cards. They only issue a full cave card, but they will issue temporary certifications for "level 1" (cavern) through "level 3" (apprentice). The NASE concept is that there have been fatalities of partially trained cave divers that never finished their training, and so there will be no permanent "intermediate level" certifications issued. The statistics back some of this up, even a 67 year old woman decided to do a circuit when she only had been trained to the intro level, and that didn't end well for her.

You can read more about the NASE program here: NASE Worldwide | Cave Diver Training

Also, based on your description of your instructor (NASE, IANTD, and NSS-CDS), I'm going to go on a limb and guess it's probably Reggie Ross. Reggie has been teaching cave diving longer than most of the people who have posted in this thread have even been diving. He's got a solid reputation and is well respected by many people in the area.

Now on to the idea behind revising cave training because of people breaking standards and diving beyond their training limits, that's about as silly as raising the speed limit because everyone's already speeding anyway. As someone that is qualified to teach the NAUI Cave 1 and Cave 2 programs, let me state up front that it's not suitable for everyone. Some people are better served by stopping at the Cavern or Intro level, gaining experience, and then moving on.

So why do people dive beyond their limits?

One reason is because they "get bored" and when that happens it's probably time for them to continue their training.

Another reason is because of peer pressure from others that don't want to "dive down" to the intro level. The ego threat / peer pressure is probably one of the biggest culprits out there. Anyone that isn't willing to dive down to the level of the lowest trained should state that up front, before getting to the site. They're also probably a d-bag because everyone that I know has been mentored by others at one time or another, so they benefited but aren't willing to "pay it forward".

Instructors can help solve some of these two problems by reinforcing the limits at each level, reminding their students that their certification card is really just a license to learn without direct supervision and to use that opportunity to gain experience before progressing. The other part that some instructors need to do a better job of is reminding their students that they have a responsibility to others to not knowingly exceed others training limits -- I make a point of reinforcing to my students to not take OW divers into caverns, cavern divers into caves, or intro divers beyond limits of training in all of my classes and remind them of the limits for all of the previous levels at the start of each class.

BTW -- anyone that's an cavern or intro level and coming to the area, feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to do a dive with you at your level if my schedule permits, and if I'm unavailable I have a network of friends and former students that will also be willing and able to do that for you.

 

[Germie]

Cards of IANTD don't expire. Tdi same.

Diving rule of thirds is always a discussion, even if you go to full cave. It can be too agressive in a lot of circumstances. A good instructor will explain this to you. Diving over rule of thirds is never an option.
Doing the cavern, intro and full cave course at once is often called zero-to-hero, but it is only possible for good and experienced divers, it is not to learn you diving techgear, you must be an experienced diver in tech gear before going on this path. Not all divers can do and not all divers should do this way. But some can. You can agree or disagree this option, but it is possible. Every diver is different, and every human is different. Same discussions you will get when divers transitioning from sport divers to tech divers. When are you ready? That depends on soooo many things that there is not 1 answer right.

 

[tbone1004]

Cards of IANTD don't expire. Tdi same.

Diving over rule of thirds is never an option.

unless you are on a CCR in which case most everyone think's it's OK to dive to what equates to almost halves... but that's another lovely discussion

 

[Germie]

Ccr cave is different course and yes you need only gas to get out of the cave. But there is another rule that states that every diver needs to carry enough gas to get 1.5 diver out. It can be a nice discussion too.

 

[tbone1004]

Ccr cave is different course and yes you need only gas to get out of the cave. But there is another rule that states that every diver needs to carry enough gas to get 1.5 diver out. It can be a nice discussion too.

and the rule of thirds is 2x diver out, so ccr divers are violating the rule of thirds by that math... Fun stuff eh? Just commenting that you can't say you never violate the rule of thirds because CCR and even dpv gas planning regularly violates the rule of 2x the gas to get out.

 

[rjack321]

Cavern is a recreational course in every agency but GUE.

It is almost ALWAYS done in recreational gear.

Yea and this is why they aren't competent going into(and getting out of) intro with doubles after only a few more days.

 

[rjack321]

unless you are on a CCR in which case most everyone think's it's OK to dive to what equates to almost halves... but that's another lovely discussion

Are you CCR diving now?