Close Call in Bali - know your DM and Dive Operator very well

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I think what we are seeing here in the OP and in the reactions expressed in many of the follow-up posts is a combination of sometimes challenging diving at Penida along with a clash of cultures.

In terms of the challenges presented by conditions at Penida, the closest I have personally come to a dangerous situation while diving was in a down current at Blue Corner, Nusa Penida, while on a mola-mola dive. In my case the occurrence of downcurrents was not discussed by the DM, so it was a very unpleasant surprise the first time it happened. It was definitely a self-rescue situation, so I can understand the OP's alarm at what he experienced.

In terms of culture, after living and diving here in SE Asia for the past 10 years, it's my experience that Asian divers DO expect DMs to be more than simple guides and tend to elevate a divemaster to a supervisory status. I see this over and over among Singaporean and Malaysian divers here. While we don't get many Filippinos where I am, it's my guess that it's pretty much the same thing among that cultural group. Though I could be wrong, I am willing to wager that the OP is Filippino based only on his reaction to the situation and his unmet expectations regarding the supervision he feels he was provided with.

I believe this is a true cultural phenomenon related to the collectivist/individualist dichotomy that anybody who has taken sociology 101 has learned about. I'm not saying it's good diving practice for anyone to rely on the DM to the extent that Asian divers do, but I am saying that their underlying cultural organization makes it more likely that they will tend to do so. Because I am familiar with these culturally-defined attitudes, when I work with Malaysian and Singaporean divers I try to impress on them the various roles and responsibilities we all have during our dives together. (I never have worked with Japanese or Korean divers since they tend to dive only with dive pros from their own countries, but I can recognize them underwater simply by their "collectivist" behaviour, so I have reason to believe it works in a similar way with them.) As an illustration of this phenomenon, if you were to read local Malaysian or Singaporean dive board members discussing an accident, the first question is invariably, "Where was the DM?" as if the primary responsibility for prevention were assigned to the dive leader and not the divers themselves. If I am correct that this is the prevalent attitude in the Philippines as well as in my guess that the OP is Filippino, then I can really understand where he is coming from.

As an educator, I have spent my entire career working to adapt educational methodologies to local cultural expectations and needs. With that background, I believe that the Western dominance in the development of learning materials for diver education has failed to take into account the differing background cultures of student divers in that Asian students will, by default, have different expectations of anyone in a leadership role than Western students will. We can only instill in our Asian students a sense of personal responsibility as divers if we recognize the need to do so and we work to overcome cultural predispositions for over-reliance on authority figures to prevent/resolve any difficulties that may present themselves.
 
I think what we are seeing here in the OP and in the reactions expressed in many of the follow-up posts is a combination of sometimes challenging diving at Penida along with a clash of cultures.

In terms of the challenges presented by conditions at Penida, the closest I have personally come to a dangerous situation while diving was in a down current at Blue Corner, Nusa Penida, while on a mola-mola dive. In my case the occurrence of downcurrents was not discussed by the DM, so it was a very unpleasant surprise the first time it happened. It was definitely a self-rescue situation, so I can understand the OP's alarm at what he experienced.

In terms of culture, after living and diving here in SE Asia for the past 10 years, it's my experience that Asian divers DO expect DMs to be more than simple guides and tend to elevate a divemaster to a supervisory status. I see this over and over among Singaporean and Malaysian divers here. While we don't get many Filippinos where I am, it's my guess that it's pretty much the same thing among that cultural group. Though I could be wrong, I am willing to wager that the OP is Filippino based only on his reaction to the situation and his unmet expectations regarding the supervision he feels he was provided with.

I believe this is a true cultural phenomenon related to the collectivist/individualist dichotomy that anybody who has taken sociology 101 has learned about. I'm not saying it's good diving practice for anyone to rely on the DM to the extent that Asian divers do, but I am saying that their underlying cultural organization makes it more likely that they will tend to do so. Because I am familiar with these culturally-defined attitudes, when I work with Malaysian and Singaporean divers I try to impress on them the various roles and responsibilities we all have during our dives together. (I never have worked with Japanese or Korean divers since they tend to dive only with dive pros from their own countries, but I can recognize them underwater simply by their "collectivist" behaviour, so I have reason to believe it works in a similar way with them.) As an illustration of this phenomenon, if you were to read local Malaysian or Singaporean dive board members discussing an accident, the first question is invariably, "Where was the DM?" as if the primary responsibility for prevention were assigned to the dive leader and not the divers themselves. If I am correct that this is the prevalent attitude in the Philippines as well as in my guess that the OP is Filippino, then I can really understand where he is coming from.

As an educator, I have spent my entire career working to adapt educational methodologies to local cultural expectations and needs. With that background, I believe that the Western dominance in the development of learning materials for diver education has failed to take into account the differing background cultures of student divers in that Asian students will, by default, have different expectations of anyone in a leadership role than Western students will. We can only instill in our Asian students a sense of personal responsibility as divers if we recognize the need to do so and we work to overcome cultural predispositions for over-reliance on authority figures to prevent/resolve any difficulties that may present themselves.

Very salient.

Clearly expectations of roles are very different. I don't think it's just cultural on a regional/national basis though - I think there are agency based cultural differences. The more 'recreational/vacational' agencies I think also promote the dependency/collectivist mentality. This in itself isn't a bad thing (although I don't like it) but the difference between the individual/collectivist mentalities should be clear. Like a lot of things in diving, they're not.

Diving needs a lot of redefinition in terms. Currently it's a muddle and not really effective.

J
 
Nusa Penida ... yes, hmmmm ... that's where Cheng and I had a similar experience when we were both very new divers (2001). I remember hanging onto corals in a current ... that made me uncomfortable because I've been taught it's wrong, then when I felt something start "nibbling" on my fingertips it made me even more uncomfortable so I let go. Next thing I knew, we were all flying through the water while the bottom dropped away below us. Fortunately we had a good dive guide ... he was with us, paying attention to us and signaling for us to begin our ascent from about 80 feet. At about 30 feet we hit a downwelling, and before we could figure out what to do we were back to about 60. We inflated our BCDs, kicked like crazy, and managed to get out of it ... then hit the surface a bit more quickly than we could manage to let the air out of the BCDs. That was "exciting". But the best part was surfacing far ... far ... from the boat. In fact, we couldn't see it, because there was a little island ... well, more like a big rock ... between us and the boat. We drifted for maybe 10 minutes until we managed to hail a fishing boat. He waved back and kept going ... fortunately on the way past our dive boat he told them we were heading in the general direction of Sulawesi ... so they came and got us. We were on the surface all of about 25 minutes by the time they picked us up. No biggie ... to us it just seemed like part of the adventure.

I gotta agree with those who encourage all divers to become responsible for their own safety ... dive guides can only do so much, and they still have to take care of themselves in the process. Because we were in the water so long, ours was becoming hypothermic ... we had to help him onto the boat when it finally got there.

Diving's just way more fun when you've gained the skills and confidence to avoid most problems, and deal with those you can't avoid without relying on someone else to help you ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Quero, thanks for a thought-provoking and interesting explanation of some of the cultural issues that may have been at work here. Having only been diving in Asian waters during that one trip to Bali (and diving mostly with a German buddy) it's not something I have direct experience with. If it's as prevalent as you describe, it could indeed have played a role in the incident reported here.

I have to concur with InTheDrink that I don't think this issue is just limited to a cultural difference. I've been diving in many places around the world, including a number that operate in your typical resort style, with DM-led dives (Belize, French Polynesia, Costa Rica) as well as places where you are expected to be self-sufficient (Baja Mexico, the Oriskany in Pensacola, and of course our local waters). In the resort-type places, I've seen quite a blend of self-reliance, all the way from once-a-year vacation divers who wouldn't know what to do without a DM leading them by the nose, to expert divers who chafe at having to follow a DM at all.

I do have compassion for the vacation divers who got certified just to be able to dive once a year when they go somewhere tropical - and I also recognize that there are many dive ops in tropical locations make their living off these types of divers. There is much disagreement about whether divers like this should even be diving at all...but I'm not going to venture into that argument.

But for people who dive more frequently, I do believe that they need to develop self-sufficiency. I've encountered plenty of divers who dive often, but almost always on DM-led dives. I think that can lead to a pretty bad case of complacency!

I guess I'm fortunate to live and do most of my dives in an area where self-sufficiency is the norm.
 
The PADI standard for a DM is pretty straight forward. The DM provides the dive teams information they can use; however the individual teams are responsbility for their own dive plan and safety.

I live and dive in Asia and all PADI DMs here are trained to PADI standards. This includes people from all cultural backgrounds. In all cultures trained by PADI, DMs are responsible to provide local environmental information so the divers themselves can plan their own dives. DM may led the divers around underwater as a guide but the divers are responsible for their dive and safety.

For the OP, maybe you can get a cooy of the PADI DM video and watch it when you have time. The video is not very well done, but at least you can see what the role of a DM is. It is very different than what you seem to expect.
 
Very salient.

Clearly expectations of roles are very different. I don't think it's just cultural on a regional/national basis though - I think there are agency based cultural differences. The more 'recreational/vacational' agencies I think also promote the dependency/collectivist mentality. This in itself isn't a bad thing (although I don't like it) but the difference between the individual/collectivist mentalities should be clear. Like a lot of things in diving, they're not.

Diving needs a lot of redefinition in terms. Currently it's a muddle and not really effective.

J

As someone who leads divers who have been certified through many different agencies, I can say that this perceived difference amongst agencies is smaller than you might expect given all of the polemic surrounding training standards for (fill in the blank) agency versus (fill in the second blank) agency. Other than divers with technical training or those who have pursued training through niche agencies like UDT or GUE, I see very little in terms of generalizable attitudinal differences among divers that could be attributed to their training agencies.
I have to concur with InTheDrink that I don't think this issue is just limited to a cultural difference. ... I've seen quite a blend of self-reliance, all the way from once-a-year vacation divers who wouldn't know what to do without a DM leading them by the nose, to expert divers who chafe at having to follow a DM at all.
Yes, it's true that you can find all of this in popular dive destinations. Once in Hawaii when I expressed a desire to mount my own rig, the young whippersnapper of a divemaster looked at me out of the corner of his eye having drawn some conclusions about my dive experience based on my gender and age and said, "What. Do you think you're an instructor or something and know how to do it better than I do?" (And guess what!) So even in the US (Hawaii) we can find a culture of dependence being foisted upon divers.

Still, I think this reveals more about the experience level of the diver as well as instructor-instilled attitudes than it does about training agency. I continue to believe that differences in attitude among people of the same cultural background are not due to standards being all that different from one agency to the next and that differences between cultural groups are striking.

CMAS, BSAC, PADI, NAUI, SSI, SDI, YMCA, LA County--they all have their "fans," and yet, as far as I have seen, it's impossible to figure out which agency trained which diver simply by sussing out their attitudes and without looking at their cards whereas it's pretty much a given that even experienced divers from particular countries will have similar expectations of the role of the dive guide. It's important to note that the OP was explicit in describing himself and his companions as very experienced divers, so the "resort" mentality can pretty much be discounted here, I think.

I would agree that we should address this issue in some way in order to prevent more divers from having the kinds of expectations and potentially dangerous experiences that the OP had.
 
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Interesting topic.

Most divers do not learn the role of a DM until they actually begin DM training. I can't recall in any of the training prior to DM where the role of a DM was clearly taught to the student.

In fact, in a recent experience in a very large dive center in Koh Tao, Thailand, I witnessed instructors telling OW students (repeatedly during the duration of the course) that when they completed their PADI OW certification, they could only dive with a DM or an Instructor. The PADI standard says otherwise of course; the standard is that OW certified divers can dive with a buddy who is OW certified or higher to a depth of 18 meters. In the case I just witnessed, the lead instructor was "working hard" to sell the OW students the AOW course.

Based on this recent experience (which caught me by surprise), I can easily imagine many divers having an over dependence on DMs and Instructors because of how they are trained.

In conclusion, my thoughts are that the incorrect perception and over dependence on a DM, as described in this post (based on a recent direct experience), could also be a result of how they were trained and how they were introduced to the system of diver training and dependency.
 
Anything could have gone wrong in that 10 min. since we all survived, we know we did something right.

This is the scariest thing to me. Don't confuse a fortunate turn of events with skill. Sure, you didn't rip your regulator out of your mouth and start screaming into the water, but don't assume you made "correct" choices just because you made it back to the boat. If you can't say exactly what you did that was right, you can't reinforce those behaviors. Take a closer look and see if you can enumerate the things you did right. I'm sure you'll have a lot of help enumerating your mistakes from the other posters here...
 
This is the scariest thing to me. Don't confuse a fortunate turn of events with skill. Sure, you didn't rip your regulator out of your mouth and start screaming into the water, but don't assume you made "correct" choices just because you made it back to the boat. If you can't say exactly what you did that was right, you can't reinforce those behaviors. Take a closer look and see if you can enumerate the things you did right. I'm sure you'll have a lot of help enumerating your mistakes from the other posters here...

...yeah, it could very well have been the case that 'Murphy' joined you on the dive, but luckily 'Murphy' apparently ran out of air first and left you with just a good scare....this time anyway.
 
...... To give you a brief, there were 4 divers and all has atleast an advance certification. We have almost 200 dives each and has been diving for 5 years or so in Philippines and in different parts of the world on a regular basis.

Here is lies one of the biggest problems in the industry that good old certification called Advanced Diver . . . . . this was really named may years ago by NAUI when they termed it OWD II. . . . . .Now you can be Advanced at 10 dives . . . .
This certification does not really mean much more than an extension to the theory/skills of some (5) parts of the OWD course that had been done . . . . . It is certainly does not mean that a person is capable of using executing this extra skill in differing types of environmental conditions other than what they have been trained in.

And whilst 200 dives may seem a lot it really does depend where and what conditions, and whilst over 5 years it more than a lot it still can lead a great number into a false security of believe that they are experienced divers . . . .



On Day 1 Dive 1, my buddy was low on air. Back home we are used to PSI rather than bar. He showed his guage to the DM and the DM gave her octapus for him to use. Instead of heading for safety stop, she still continued to go around and take the rest of the divers around. Probably a good 5 minutes before taking our safety stop.

This is really diving 101 know your equipment and what the instruments are telling you . . if you don't then find out before you use this equipment and if you still have problems then you should not be in the water . . .

On Day 2 Dive 1, we went to Crystal Bay (it would be our second time to go there). Before dropping in the water, DM's briefing was that the current is strong and if we are sure we wanted to go. We of course said sure if we can see the Mola Mola there.
We went on with the dive as planned. Current was very very strong that it required us to hang on to corals so we don't get washed away.


Should have been a warning sign to abort the dive right then . . . "having to hang to corals so as not to be washed away . . . ."

Close to finishing our safety stop, a down current (downswelling) suddenly came and started to pull us down. Our dive profile went from 10-15 ft to 30ft and then all the way down to 65 ft in 10 seconds or less. The 4 of us were stuck in the whirlpool for around 10min while our DM was already up in the boat.

One couple hanged on together and at some point had to use an octapus because one of them was low on air. My buddy and I got seperated from them. From 65ft we saw them drift so far away from us. We climbed up a wall and my buddy was low on air too. After much struggle all four of us got out safely (thank, God).

While recapturing what just happened and what we felt during that 10 min, it was there that we learned:

1/ DM did not know where the nearest chamber was
2/ most DM would take their rescue and DM certification together (probably this is a practice - not sure if it's the best one)
3/ the 2 different DM's assigned to us only had 1 month and 3 month experience each in Bali.
4/ Onset the DM new that we were in search of the mola mola. after the dive he says mola mola will not come up in a current like that (what the hell were we there for then??)

Anything could have gone wrong in that 10 min. since we all survived, we know we did something right.

DM not knowing where the nearest Hyperbaric Unit is just not forgivable (certianly part of the DM course and then part of their job to know and understand the local facilities and environment. . . however as you now point out this is also not an excuse for you not knowing it as well

If they only had 1 / 3 month (s) experience then where was that experience . . .obviously not at Crystal Bay . . . One of the other problems is you can be a DM with a 100 dives . . and perform the functions of DM in an area where you are not used to diving . . . I call this the blind leading the blind

We can only treat this as a lesson learned. When doing trips outside your turf:
1/ ask about the DM's credentials and their length of experience in the area
2/ know where the hospital is and chamber just in case you need it

I couldn't really say that the DM was well experienced or not but 1-3 months diving in Bali may not be enough to be a good dive guide and to know the water conditions very well. Between these guys or myself, i'd probably still choose them to guide me. But knowing what i know now.. we might have gone with some other dive operator.

We went with Atlantis Bali for our dive.

:confused:

Have you talked with Atlantis about your problems....?

Normally Atlantis are one of the better operators around . . . . and I would be most surprised if the Op did not do something about this or at at least investigate the incident. . . .

Indeed you are lucky . . . curious to know if you now understand what you should do in a "down welling" and what actually causes them......whilst I was not there on the day it was more likely a down current . . .

FYI :
Down Wellings: A patch of cold denser water cascades down the reef through warmer less dense water.

Down currents Most commonly found when a horizontal current strikes the face of a wall and then moves down the face of the wall / reef / drop off or other feature. Down currents may also be found when a horizontal current runs perpendicular to a drop off, or where two opposing currents run into or over each other. (have seen the later up in Waiego Raja Empat)

It is best to swim away and up from the reef / drop off or other natural feature the water is cascading over , (trying not to exhaust your self) drop you weight belt if if feel that your descent is going to take you beyond the recreational limits, if you are still being taken down then inflate you BCD but be ready to dump you air as soon as you start to rise up and be prepared to flare your body if your ascent starts to be
faster than normal.
 

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