cold water vs. warm water

[shoredivr]

If you get certified in warm water or take a referral, you recieve your OW, which is only valid in water warmer than say 10 farenheit degrees below of your certification temperature.

In my thought it would be much like getting an endorsement on your driver's permit.


This would force warm trained divers to take a locally applicable skills course and meet a level of competence in local conditions before being able to rent gear or get fills locally, to dive alone, but would allow escorted dives under instructor supervision until the standard is met.

Hmmmm.....that's sort of like what they've got going in Quebec right now with FQAS http://www.fqas.qc.ca/ and we all know how well that is working...from the thread: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...0-cert-currency-requirements-too-lenient.html

In Quebec, we do have this kind of control due to the constantly harsh cold conditions in the St-Lawrence... Temp is around hi-30's to low-40's even in summer. So, if you want to dive anywhere in the province and if you want to rent gear or buy air, you need both your c-card and your FQAS card, which is only good for 3 years. When it expires, you need to go to a FQAS-approved instructor (or directly the FQAS office) and prove that you meet one of the following:

1- 10 dives in the last 3 years in conditions that meets those in Quebec
2- Took a refresher course AND did a supervised dive with an instructor
3- Passed a certification

What really happens NorthO, is this:

The Ontario part of the St. Lawrence River around Brockville and Rockport becomes part of the annual stampede of Quebecois/e divers who don't want to put up with the FQAS nonsense...there are more and more Quebecers diving in Ontario every year. It's great for the economy

The reverse is also true: last time I checked, the FQAS website had no english language translation, making it more difficult than needed for any non-french speaking person to try and comply with the FQAS money-grab, er, regulations. So you get less non-Quebec divers coming to spend their money in say, les Escoumins.....it's sad, really.

[It's still true, no English translation......]

The reason I said cash grab is because you have to pay for the FQAS card even if you fit #1 of NorthO's listed FQAS requirements (have 10 dives in last 3 years in conditions like Quebec diving).

In this thread dated 2004, the price for getting your yearly FQAS card is $17. I'm sure it's more now.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ontario-fresh-water-freaks/68602-viz-morrisons-quarry-2.html

Here's two people's experiences with an FQAS "dive inspector" at that same quarry in August, 2008.

Ontario Diving


To the OP: while there are many ways of encouraging divers to stay current with their skills, surely the manner and method experienced by the two people in the OD posts is not a good example.

And how exactly are the dive inspectors going to police the max 60 ft for open water divers, anyway?

 

[DA Aquamaster]

A few thoughts on why cold water diving is more challenging...

1. Putting on a 7mm wet suit or drysuit with heavy underwear is more difficult than what you normally go through on a topical dive, and in the summer the air temps may be nearly as high. Add to that putting on thick gloves and a hood and the diver can be quite stressed before they ever hit the water. You need to be strategic in how you assemble your equipment and dresss for the dive and that is not something taught in most cold water classes, let alone in a warm water environment.

2. Great fresh water viz would be considered really poor viz by most tropical dive standards. 10 ft is common in warmer fresh water and even donw deep below a thermocline or two great/exceptional viz is still only on the order of 30-40 feet in all but a few locations. That low viz greatly increases the need for solid navigation and buddy skills, and can contribute to higher levels of anxiety.

3. Silt tends to go hand in hand with most fresh water locations and poor fin technique or poor buoyancy control quickly turns exceptional viz inot zero viz. Consider the average tropical story where some one whines that the diver kept landing on or finning the reef. In freshwater there would be no whining as no one would even see the offending diver after the first explosion of silt.

4. Cold then comes into play in terms of restriction mobility of fingers, related difficulty operating inflators, and, as noted above the greater potential to be overweighted, greatly complicating expert buoyancy control. Dives also tend to be shorter, and you may have a 20-30 minute fresh water dive rather than a 40-50 minute tropical dive, so the time in water per 'dive' varies significantly.

5. DMs are common on tropical boat trips but are very rare for most inland diving and today's OW diver is not well trained to operate independently in tropical water, not to mention the more challenging conditions in cold water. But it is largely course standards and the perceived need to feed a tropical DM guided dive industry that have created the dumbing down of OW training.

More fatalities in cold water is not a surprise.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I agree with both of these statements, and draw the unavoidable conclusion that a 7mm suit is not appropriate thermal protection for 55 degree water!

GIven that I believe anything below about 80 requires a dry suit, I'm there with you .

But put a new diver in 55* water in any exposed skin and the initial temperature shock can be quite intense.

 

[rstofer]

What about the possibility that dive fatalities abroad are under-reported?

We already have DAN statistics that PROVE that divers over 40 should get out of the sport as 80% of fatalities occur to those over 40. Or, was it 90%...

I don't think there is a shred of science in any of the published studies. Sure, cold water diving is more strenuous than warm water diving. And the really scary part of this 'study' would be the fact that warm water dives probably outnumber coldwater dives 100 to 1 (and I just grabbed that number out of thin air).

I think I'll go with the 'under-reported' until someone can prove my wrong. I don't want to think about the alternative.

And I would want to know the actual COD. If it was MI, cold water may be a huge factor but so is old age.

Oh, wait, DAN can't determine a COD because it is usually listed as drowning (when it is reported at all!). Well, duh! Sure, right after the MI, drowning happens next.

Don't spend too much time studying studies.

Richard

 

[kanonfodr]

GIven that I believe anything below about 80 requires a dry suit, I'm there with you .

But put a new diver in 55* water in any exposed skin and the initial temperature shock can be quite intense.

Kingpatzer, I'm soon to be in your boat.

Diving in Lake Travis and California over this winter was an extreme shock to a Hawaii-diving cold weenie like myself. I remember the four-letter words going through my mind when I hit those 65 and below water temps, repeatedly. And thicker wetsuits don't help much, IMO. You still get the cold rush as water fills the suit and when 98* body gets covered in 56* water, it's cold for good.

As far as warm water skills practice not translating to cold water, I'm split on that. I don't think it is so much as skills, as the holy cow aspect of jumping into visibilities much lesser than the tropical locations offer. My first Lake Travis dives started with 1-2 for the first 40 feet, then opened up to 10-12 when we got under the thermocline. Me and my buddy ended up holding hands on the way down, because I was not fond of losing them in that unfamiliar soup.

So yes, the differences at first can be quite shocking to a warm-water diver, but inevitably I have started enjoying my trips to Lake Travis (and now Cali) precisely because the conditions aren't as nice as my home diving. And while I love the 70+ viz days here, I was loving the 20-ft days in Cali as more stuff could sneak up on (and be snuck upon) you, the thrill was incredible. Watching a shape underwater materialize into a swimming bird gave me quite a giggle. Same thing for that catfish I ran into in Lake Travis.

I guess it depends on the mindset of the individual diver. I understand that Oahu is really just one big aquarium compared to diving in other places, and while that is no excuse for complacency it does lend itself to some rather relaxed diving. I'm still waiting for my next trip home to go do some more Green Water diving, that stuff is intense.

Peace,
Greg

 

[rstofer]

Kingpatzer, I'm soon to be in your boat.

Diving in Lake Travis and California over this winter was an extreme shock to a Hawaii-diving cold weenie like myself. I remember the four-letter words going through my mind when I hit those 65 and below water temps, repeatedly. And thicker wetsuits don't help much, IMO. You still get the cold rush as water fills the suit and when 98* body gets covered in 56* water, it's cold for good.

Try a semi-dry suit if you get the chance. The ankle, wrist and neck seals keep out a lot of the water that rushes through a wetsuit. I have the AquaLung SolaFX 7/8mm wetsuit and it works very well in the very low 50's. The only problem is that I burn up before I can get to the water. I usually pour a bottle of drinking water inside the suit as I zip up.

It's not a replacement for a drysuit but it's a couple of grand cheaper.

Richard

 

[tregrrr]

I am personally not in favour of having certifications for everything under the sun. For what it is worth I advocate the approach that in some cases you can try something different without having the card for it (e.g., learning to dive a drysuit), but in such cases be extra cautious and keep the profile simple (NOTE: a few examples of where this approach would be foolhardy are cave-diving and wreck penetration). I believe that warm water divers should be aware that cold water is very different and while some of their warm-water skills transfer to cold water, some of their warm-water-acquired preparation will be lacking or totally absent. At very least, gear-rental shops in Vancouver should be careful to take a very clear credit card imprint from divers with southern drawls in case their equipment does not come back.

that was why I suggested that warm water divers be supervised while new to the icelocker

Kingpatzer, I'm soon to be in your boat.

Diving in Lake Travis and California over this winter was an extreme shock to a Hawaii-diving cold weenie like myself. I remember the four-letter words going through my mind when I hit those 65 and below water temps, repeatedly. And thicker wetsuits don't help much, IMO. You still get the cold rush as water fills the suit and when 98* body gets covered in 56* water, it's cold for good.

Try a semi-dry suit if you get the chance. The ankle, wrist and neck seals keep out a lot of the water that rushes through a wetsuit. I have the AquaLung SolaFX 7/8mm wetsuit and it works very well in the very low 50's. The only problem is that I burn up before I can get to the water. I usually pour a bottle of drinking water inside the suit as I zip up.

It's not a replacement for a drysuit but it's a couple of grand cheaper.

Richard

Yeah you're right its not a replacement for a drysuit I did a grand total of 4 wetsuit dives before realizing that there was a reason my instructors weren't shivvering like us while we swam underwater and looked up and admired the crystalline ice shards forming in the surface layer. with a 34F bottom temp and 27F air temp you can imagine the difference in wet vs dry diving

 

[fisheater]

I've found that 7 mm was just fine for 55 degree water (which is a warm day around here).

In addition to the thermal shock encountered by warm water divers entering our water, there are issues of (a) wearing a constrictive hood, (b) lack of mobility, (c) lack of visibility, (d) lots of weight, and (e) huge buoyancy shifts.

All in all, warm water trained divers really need a few instructor supervised dives to be qualified to dive here in reasonable safety.

 

[rstofer]

Yeah you're right its not a replacement for a drysuit I did a grand total of 4 wetsuit dives before realizing that there was a reason my instructors weren't shivvering like us while we swam underwater and looked up and admired the crystalline ice shards forming in the surface layer. with a 34F bottom temp and 27F air temp you can imagine the difference in wet vs dry diving

Of course I can imagine diving under ice. What I can't imagine is my ever doing it! I hate cold...

Richard

 

[tregrrr]

fortunately for us, there was only sunlight catching crystals forming in the 20MPH wind licked surface chop...

ice is best left for after the OW course