Cost of GUE/DIR training

[TSandM]

You know, I've run into this discussion in more places than here. Read the dressage BB I used to hang out on, and you'll see people feeling sorry for themselves because they can't afford a top quality competition dressage prospect (which will run you $40K and up) and it isn't FAIR that other people can.

I'm sorry that GUE classes have become as expensive as they have (and the cost, for example, for Cave 1 in MX has gone up $1000 since I took the class three years ago) because it's almost certain that I won't ever take another GUE class -- Cave 2 was a big stretch, and I can't afford to do it over. But complaining about it is like complaining about the price for a new Audi (which I can't afford any more, either). Things cost what the people selling them can sell them for -- that's a free market. If Chris and Danny and Fred can actually make a reasonable LIVING off teaching diving (and support their exploration habits) more power to them.

 

[Adobo]

I guess the question is how much do people think a should a dive instructor should reasonably make? That would go a long way to indicate whether or not GUE is too expensive.

Because let me assure you all that there are jobs that require FAR more work for A LOT less pay than even the worst paid scuba instructor--and they at least get to dive for a living.

The guy that digs ditches around my yard works far harder than an I do. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Michael Dell are all college drop outs and yet they are all billionaires. It might not be fair but it is the way it is.

Whether or not GUE classes are too expensive has nothing to do with how hard their instructors work(though the two I know work pretty danged hard before, during and after the classes) or what college degrees they have/don't have (though the two I know have master's degrees in computer science). It has to do with the value that their customers perceive in the training that they provide. And for as long as instructors keep filling up their classes with students, there is no reason for them to reduce the tuition costs. Just because some instructors are generous, we should not confuse their activities with charity.

One other thing to consider... There are dozens of dive shops in every state. Each dive shop teaches Open Water, Advanced Open Water, etc. So you have tons of choices for where to take these classes. And its a real crap shoot - you might get a good instructor or you might get a mediocre instructor. Whereas there are only 17 instructors in all of the United States that are certified to teach Fundies. That's it. And while I might not click with all of the instructors from a personality perspective, I have every confidence that each one of those instructors delivers a fantastic class.

 

[LiteHedded]

You know, I've run into this discussion in more places than here. Read the dressage BB I used to hang out on, and you'll see people feeling sorry for themselves because they can't afford a top quality competition dressage prospect (which will run you $40K and up) and it isn't FAIR that other people can.

I'm sorry that GUE classes have become as expensive as they have (and the cost, for example, for Cave 1 in MX has gone up $1000 since I took the class three years ago) because it's almost certain that I won't ever take another GUE class -- Cave 2 was a big stretch, and I can't afford to do it over. But complaining about it is like complaining about the price for a new Audi (which I can't afford any more, either). Things cost what the people selling them can sell them for -- that's a free market. If Chris and Danny and Fred can actually make a reasonable LIVING off teaching diving (and support their exploration habits) more power to them.

agreed. doesn't mean I have to like the direction they're (gue) headed.

 

[Peter Guy]

I always get a laugh out of this type of discussion because the underlying assumption is there is somehow a "fair" or "right" price for "X" (and here "X" is teaching GUE classes). Please understand -- there is NO SUCH THING AS A RIGHT OR FAIR PRICE! Something is only "right" or "fair" if all parties agree that it is.

Just like Beauty, "a fair price" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[TSandM]

Well, I don't think the answer is to make the GUE instructors work for less! The answer is to get rid of the low quality instructors for the other agencies. And maybe GUE being so expensive will let some of the GOOD instructors in Florida charge more?

 

[ucfdiver]

Well, I don't think the answer is to make the GUE instructors work for less! The answer is to get rid of the low quality instructors for the other agencies. And maybe GUE being so expensive will let some of the GOOD instructors in Florida charge more?

Not really. Most of the income in NFL is from out of state. Look in the technical diving forum and you'll see a recent thread where a specific instructor I was hinting at (who has quite possibly the worst reputation in the state for cave courses) was "highly recommended". When newbies read this, they call the 5 instructors suggested, and one is $300, one is $600. Now, if I went to a place to eat and asked what's good and one suggestion was $10, and the other was $20, both highly recommended, I would choose the cheaper of the suggested options.

You're a great example. You took basic cave twice essentially. I did too. Pfcaj took naui c1 and later took GUE C1 for similar reasons. But so many people settle for subpar training and never realize it because they dive with classmates who suck as well. My cavern class was awful, and it was taught by the NACD president at the time, but since we only dove with fellow students or people we met through the instructor, we didn't realize it.

 

[TSandM]

Yes, the pervasive problem in all dive training is that you don't know what quality is until you've seen it. I don't at all regret spending the money I did on the training I've gotten, and the more I see of other folks who are either technically or cave trained, or both, the more I prize the instructors I've had . . . AND the great folks with whom I dive, who are willing to critique me and help me improve.

If you can't afford a great class, try to find some great mentors

 

[LiteHedded]

Yes, the pervasive problem in all dive training is that you don't know what quality is until you've seen it. I don't at all regret spending the money I did on the training I've gotten, and the more I see of other folks who are either technically or cave trained, or both, the more I prize the instructors I've had . . . AND the great folks with whom I dive, who are willing to critique me and help me improve.

If you can't afford a great class, try to find some great mentors

that is solid advice!

 

[Scott L]

If you can't afford a great class, try to find some great mentors

that is solid advice!

Indeed.

 

[ScubaFeenD]

The guy that digs ditches around my yard works far harder than an I do. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Michael Dell are all college drop outs and yet they are all billionaires. It might not be fair but it is the way it is.

Whether or not GUE classes are too expensive has nothing to do with how hard their instructors work(though the two I know work pretty danged hard before, during and after the classes) or what college degrees they have/don't have (though the two I know have master's degrees in computer science). It has to do with the value that their customers perceive in the training that they provide. And for as long as instructors keep filling up their classes with students, there is no reason for them to reduce the tuition costs. Just because some instructors are generous, we should not confuse their activities with charity.
.

I was referring to the people that research cures to disease, not ditch diggers.

Price should correlate with what you get for it. You cant be guaranteed that the training will benefit you, but you pay up front anyway. Instructors are filling classes, but it isnt always because they are the best. The assumption that a free market is working is based on a fully informed consumer, which you will never be as long as rumors and monopoly control the system.

Everyone picks (to some degree) what profession they want to be based on some level of desire and happiness. A person should not go into SCUBA training with the idea that they deserve to live like a king. I mean to me it looks pretty good to be an instructor. It can be fun, get to spend a lot of time in the water, always have the best gear, and get paid to do it. If you make a name for yourself, you even get shuttled to exotic locales with all expenses paid just to do what you are good at. Sounds more like a permanent vacation. AND if you dont like what you get paid you can always get another job OR leave the profession. It seems like instructors want their cake and to eat it too, but as it has been mentioned life isnt fair.

I will pay for GUE courses because I think training is a far greater investment than other things, but to see some type of monopoly being formed and prices edging higher and higher is just ridiculous. Students need to be reasonable and expect that quality training and classes will be more expensive, but instructors need to be reasonable to and not nickel and dime people to bankruptcy. Otherwise, all those people complaining about how bad typical students are only have to blame themselves for pricing many of the classes out of the range of the typical student just discovering the activity.