Cozumel Incident 9/4/11

[Mossman]

They did not perceive this dive as hella dangerous; this implies a lack of: (1) experience with planning and executing deep dives safely with ample allowance for failures, or, (2) training in deep diving safely in a failure tolerant manner. Either of which would have given them that perception of danger.

Even if they were technically trained to do those dives, I'm sure they weren't strangers to the concepts of deeper diving and the inherent risks. Having done similar deep dives in the past, they undoubtedly had experienced narcosis. Unless they were absolutely clueless, I'm sure they perceived the dangers just fine. They were simply more overconfident and risk-tolerant than the rest of us here. Being younger doesn't always mean you'll live longer.

 

[Ron Lee]

Even if they were technically trained to do those dives, I'm sure they weren't strangers to the concepts of deeper diving and the inherent risks. Having done similar deep dives in the past, they undoubtedly had experienced narcosis. Unless they were absolutely clueless, I'm sure they perceived the dangers just fine. They were simply more overconfident and risk-tolerant than the rest of us here. Being younger doesn't always mean you'll live longer.

Thanks for the TDI response earlier. I should have thought of them.

I hope that this info comes out in time. If they did have reasonable experience deep, were they really confident that the available gas was enough? A 80 cu ft tank seems marginal/inadequate for me with the deco schedule shown in an earlier post.

If they knew that they were subject to narcosis, how did one diver slip below the planned floor? Actually all seem to have gone below the reported 250' - 300' limit.

Were there other physiological factors involved that impacted this dive such as fatigue/lack of sleep?

 

[Texas Torpedo]

Even if they were technically trained to do those dives, I'm sure they weren't strangers to the concepts of deeper diving and the inherent risks. Having done similar deep dives in the past, they undoubtedly had experienced narcosis. Unless they were absolutely clueless, I'm sure they perceived the dangers just fine. They were simply more overconfident and risk-tolerant than the rest of us here. Being younger doesn't always mean you'll live longer.

Sure they were "strangers" to the actual risks involved in diving at this level/depth..

IF they were technically trained divers they would know just how severe the penalty would be for violating a deco obligation such as they did (and would have raced to the chamber the second they boarded the boat, which absolutely could have dropped them off at a dock less than 30 seconds after boarding, and returned to the other divers just as quickly), not to mention they would have never attempted a 250' & 300' dive without planning for it = redundancy, plenty of air, deco options, emergency plan, etc.. etc.. etc..

This is just my opinion.. I feel the majority of (Non-Tech Trained) "professionals" who dive in Cozumel and other vacation spots (even with "thousands of dives" each) figure the worst thing they are going to be facing are chamber rides - not paralysis, and potentially death. This is all they have experienced on the Islands... Some people get bent for "undeserved" - no good reason, and some get bent for diving "too much" or "too deep".. They know they will be in for a bad time because it doesn't feel good, and worse, they can't put money on the table for their families until the doc clears them to dive again.. But, I'm guessing this group did not know that one would be learning to walk again, one would be paralyzed from the waist down and yet another from the neck down on a ventilator, weeks after they surfaced. If they had (been trained), I'd venture a guess they would have never attempted such a dive, even if they had gotten away with similar many times before being educated beyond the normal limits.

The one positive that will likely come out of this is educating divers in Cozumel that DCS can be much worse than temporary injuries that side-line diving for a few months to a year.. The sad fact is that injuries like these often include life-long injuries of one type or another.. Again, not something recreational vacation divers, DM's and Instructors are usually exposed to.. Trained divers who regularly dive deep (200+, non-bounce deco dives, many in conditions 95% of certified diver probably don't care to go) KNOW that if things go really bad it might just be better to die at depth than deal with what is to come if they don't get to a chamber as soon as possible. Would most say forget it and race to the surface? The statistics I've seen show this to be the case.. The difference is a tech diver knows what is coming if we screw up.. And thus, we do out best to make sure it does not happen in the first place. No thousand dives required.

 

[TSandM]

There is a fallacy in the inductive reasoning of repeated experience. If you flip a coin eight times, and it comes up heads eight times, your chances of getting tails on the NEXT flip haven't changed at all.

Now, you might argue that repeated experience with deep air dives will give you a greater and greater capacity to cope with adversity down there. But some of the odds don't change at all -- you're still on 80 cf of gas, you're still facing a rapid nitrogen accumulation down there -- and the studies suggest that one's capacity to respond to novel issues when in the grip of narcosis really does not augment with repeated exposure. (Is anybody here going to argue that being at 300 feet on air, you are not thoroughly narced?)

So, in the end, you have incurred some significant risks again and again and gotten away with it . . . but nothing has changed to make those risks any less, or the price of error any less. As these poor people learned, to their horrendous and permanent cost.

 

[Mike]

Nobody is saying these divers didn't have lots of dives. Their experience level for a rather limited skill set was high. They did not have adequate experience for this particular skill set, nor the training for this particular skill set.



All the best, James

I'm sorry but I'm still in disagreement. For the type of diving they were doing, I believe they had all the experience and training they needed. Doing deep bounce type dives on air IS the dives they were doing. It's an old school dive style from the 60-70s that was fully accepted back then and not that long ago now. You do what they did, you might get bent now and then, you do some in water recompression, you go have a beer and talk about when you're going to do it again.

That was the dive, that was the dive plan, it was the dive plan from many of their previous dives doing exactly what they did on this last dive. That's what divers who follow the deep dive on air do and did, to me it all spells out that Opal was of that mindset and school of thought, she's had the skill set required to do exactly what she did and has been doing. No matter how much more skills she could gain it wouldn't change a thing, it was just a matter of when not if something was going to happen, as is the case with this type of diving. She got away with it for years and years and years.

All conjecture on my part, based on just lumping her in with similar divers who did/do what she did. Not a lot of secrets, they all do it the same, this is why I don't think there were any 'skills' to be gained to change her chances, the only 'skills' would have been to stop doing what they were doing and dive it like a tech diver would. Barring that, as long as they were going to keep doing deep dives on air, it's just following that old 60's-70's scuba diving methodology.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Is there anywhere that i can read a few posts to find out what happened and the outcome?

 

[Ayisha]

No matter how much more skills she could gain it wouldn't change a thing, it was just a matter of when not if something was going to happen, as is the case with this type of diving.

Not necessarily. Even if, as others have said, they just carried enough gas to complete the deco they racked up or hung a tank or two to complete their deco obligation, this dive would have been a non-issue when it was all over like the other dives. The above two suggestions are very simple and no one would be bent and no one would be permanently injured or paralysed.

 

[annlaur]

Is there anywhere that i can read a few posts to find out what happened and the outcome?

This is one of the posts :

Sorry for the delay. I'm traveling on the road and the last place I stopped I couldn't get data access.

Here is what I know of the situation. You can take it however you want. I am not going to cite direct sources, (there are multiple sources corroborating the same information) so if that causes you to dismiss what I am sharing, so be it. Suffice it to say; what Kevin shared early on is mostly correct. Additionally, one of the divers involved has shared with several people about what took place. It is my understanding that his story of the events has not changed, nor has he been withholding details to save face.

At this point, the chance of getting a first hand / legitimate buddy account regarding this dive is slim considering the shop owner is in no position to, nor will she be any time soon. The diver involved who showed up here and posted the reason this took place was simply due to a extreme down current, is false, and what he may say lacks credibility now IMO. The DM who is also hospitalized and still battling paralysis is not a visitor of internet forums and is unlikely to have someone help him give a detailed first had account at least until his treatments are resolved.

As I have previously mentioned, I am not posting any of this to embarrass or hurt anyone. I’m releasing the information that I know relating to this to:
a) Defend Cozumel as a safe place to dive; and
b) Hopefully reach other divers who might have wild ideas about pushing way past the established limits without the proper training, equipment and planning And show them what can happen if they do.

Some of you have expressed concern and consternation about why some Dive Ops apparently in the know have not been forthcoming with all that they may know. IMO there are probably a number of reasons for this. Firstly, I’d say it is not their responsibility to disclose this information, and generally there may be legal privacy concerns as well. I’m not sure if this applies to non-customer divers but as a business owner myself, I rarely discuss business related matters with those who don’t need to know.
Secondly, there are those online that would most certainly see this release of information by a competing operator as an underhanded jab at another business, essentially throwing them under the bus, which couldn’t be further from the truth. Most of the dive ops on the Island are friendly with each other, and often work together.

I’ve talked to several friends in the industry back in Cozumel and they are all shocked, saddened and upset about what has happened. People do get bent occasionally diving in Cozumel, just like anyplace else on earth, however rarely like this. No matter the circumstances or who it is it hits home for those who live on the Island far greater than those who do not, with the exception of friends and family.
What else? How about if they get any of the information incorrect? They’d be taken to task for it, just as I am sure I will be should anything I am posting turn out to be inaccurate. I also know there has been a concern that disclosure of this information may affect those who may donate to their medical bills. This has given me pause with regard to responding as I am now. I sincerely hope that is not the case. These are good people who simply made some poor decisions. I’m absolutely sure none of them expected this outcome. They most definitely deserve our support.

Back to what everyone really is interested in...

This dive took place on Villa Blanca Wall.

As I previously posted, it is my understanding that this dive’s goal was a deep bounce dive. The planned depth for the three injured divers was 250 - 300 fsw. I cannot confirm the maximum depth reached, however the plan was exceeded substantially. I’ve heard in excess of 400 fsw by multiple people as a max depth but this hasn’t been confirmed by anyone that I know via a dive computer. I believe there is also someone looking into what the max attainable depth is where they were diving, and if it was even possible to reach 400+ in that area. In the end, it really doesn’t matter.. 250-400.. Single tanks, etc.. Bad bad idea.. Is it possible? Sure.. But, it leaves almost no room for error.

In route to their goals, two of the divers leveled off, while the one that is in the most critical condition continued down. When the dive master tried to get her attention, she continued on. The DM then made the decision to go after her while the other diver remained around his planned depth. Upon the return of the two that exceeded the plan, there was a serious enough issue with remaining gas that they decided their only recourse was to make a direct ascent to the surface without making any stops, while sharing air between the three of them.

Once back on the surface they made the decision to switch out their tanks with a second set and try to complete some deco, or what has been calling in-water re-compression. I’ve been told these tanks were filled with air (Not that I believe that Nitrox would have helped all that much at this point) and the depth they returned to was in the 60-70' range. Most likely well above their first stop level depending on how long they were down.

I have also now been told that both of the local divers were using 80's, while the diver who was hurt the least was using an AL100, for those who were asking.

That is pretty much the summary of what I know..

I’m sure everyone is going to have an opinion on this incident and what the trigger factors were… Like most dive accidents, it’s usually not just one thing… Without a doubt I feel narcosis was key factor in what took place. If anyone has experienced narcosis at 100-150, you can go ahead and amplify that significantly in the 200-300’ range on air.. You can be an excellent diver and have bounced down to 200’, 225’ or 250’ previously on air just fine, but you don’t know what your body is going to do when you take it just a little further. In her case she simply kept going…

It really sucks¦ It’s tragic.. It hurts.. And it should!

This should be a warning to anyone who wants to beat their chest and talk about just how deep they have been. (If bragging means that much to anyone, GET TRAINED and equipped for it. I don’t give a flip if you are some gung-ho dive master or instructor with 1000’s of dives... You are just as bad (if not worse) as a non-certified / trained person donning SCUBA gear and jumping in. Ignorance is bliss until it kills or cripples you and breaks your family & friend’s hearts.

David

You can also check this thread


Below is the first post :

forward: i hope the web administrator will allow this thread to start fresh as i feel the facts of the situation are getting lost in the 50+ pages of the original. the info below was gathered personally by me from the 2 DMs on board, the captain, and permission from all plus the dive op's brother who is running the show during her sister's absence while she is still in florida undergoing treatment. it is complicated. some of this info is repeated in the orig thread, some info is new as of today during my chat with the captain. i will try to bullet point it to be clearer.

- this was a dive trip, 1 tank, for people from the dive shop. there were no paying clients on board. trip consisted of the owner, 3 of her DMs, and 2 shop friends going on a pleasure dive.
- the trip was to villa blanca. the captain knew that 2 DMs and one of the shop's friends were going to hunt for lionfish and lobster, for food for their clients for the next day. the owner, her friend and the other DM were to do a regular dive in villa blanca. the reef is outside of the national park limits. the dive was at a rare hour, therefore boat traffic was nil. on top of that, we are in low season and there are very few divers in the water this time of year.
- the captain was never told the depth of the plan for the 3 who had the accident. the others did a plan of around 140-160 max for a short period of time, with most of the dive hovering closer to the top of the wall hunting, being 80 to 100ft. capt found out about the depth of the victims when they got to the chamber. the captain is a 20yr veteran of dive boats in cozumel. he knows what to do and understands enough about dive accidents to do the right thing.
- the boat had 2 extra tanks on board (common practice for low tanks/o-rings,etc).
- all divers went in and separated into 2 groups.
- villa blanca is just out in front of the shop. it is also close to the new car ferry pier. currents in the reef can be wicked, calm, changing direcion, all of the above. the time of the end of the dive corresponded to the car ferry coming into port.
- group 2 (lobster/lion fish hunters) did a safe dive with no incidents and all safety stops.
- group 1, as later found out, was trying to break their own deep dive record. we all know this is the mistake that caused it all. no need to touch on this topic (IMHO). the owner had 100 tank, ther other two 80s. had the captain known of the planned depth, he would have asked about ponys, etc.
- they were at 320ft, gabi the DM was banging his tank when he saw opal (the owner) going deeper and not responding to him. he went for her in a brave rescue, saw that she had 900psi, she said she was ok (obviously narced), he grabbed her and brought her up to the other diver at 320ft. they ascended together, under gabi's control and gabi and opal ran out of air around 200ft. gabi just knew they would die. however, he stayed in control, holding onto both of them, and all three buddy breathed on the other diver's tank to the surface, when they ran out of air. gabi claims that all three were blowing out their bubbles hence no lung expansion injuries.
- upon ascent, the boat was close and they called for getting the O2 ready. captain did just that, helped them with the gear and they laid down, opal being in the worst shape. she got the O2 and was in extreme pain, as were the others. captain was immediately on the phone with the local chamber calling for the ambulance to pick them up in front of the meridiano, the closest pier from their spot.
- then, panic set in full force. capt could not leave the scene for the other 3 divers still below. the car ferry was approaching close enough for him to be worried for them getting propped if he let them float too long. opal demanded that her gear was set up so she could go back in. capt knew it was best for her to stay on O2, but she was frantic. he felt torn but set up the tank. his boss was ORDERING him to set up her gear. if he didn't, he knew she would. faster than he could even believe, she was back in.
- gabi and the other diver saw her down there and had to make sure she was ok. so they got the other tank and breathed on it together at 30ft (2nd stage and octopus).
- they were at 30ft for 10 or so minutes, perhaps less, in total. during this time, the other divers came up. captain went to get them, told the other DMs what happened, they hurried to them and the other DM wanted to get on his tank and get back down to see if they were ok. the captain ordered him to stay on board and wait for them to surface.
- opal, gabi and the other diver surfaced, they went straight to the pier and as they arrived, so did the ambulance. there was ZERO time wasted from the call to the arrival of the ambulance and them being placed en route to the chamber.

as mentioned, i am in 100% agreement that the captain was placed in a position he should NEVER have been in but with all said, made the best choice.. the IWR was a result of panic and crazy circumstances. just a horrific day. DAN docs are amazed that gabi is alive, that he was able to function for a full on rescue at that depth, and that he is 100% in the head and looks like he will have a full recovery with time and therapy. they are watching him closely.

 

[sealkie]

Is there anywhere that i can read a few posts to find out what happened and the outcome?

the first post in the Mishap Analysis section has a pretty much undisputed sequence of events

one diver is back in the US and more or less recovering but I doubt they`ll be diving again - at least not with a doctors blessing
one diver is in hospital or rehanb in Coz - still unable to walk - don`t know what the likelyhood is that he`ll walk again - certainly wil not be diving
one diver in hospital in the US - may or may survive

can be best summed up as a bad idea gone bad

 

[halocline]

Even if they were technically trained to do those dives, I'm sure they weren't strangers to the concepts of deeper diving and the inherent risks. Having done similar deep dives in the past, they undoubtedly had experienced narcosis. Unless they were absolutely clueless, I'm sure they perceived the dangers just fine. They were simply more overconfident and risk-tolerant than the rest of us here. Being younger doesn't always mean you'll live longer.

I believe this comes closer to articulating what would cause very experienced dive professionals to undertake such a stunningly risky dive than your earlier post did. It's not that they think that 300ft+ on a single AL80 is "reasonable" it's more that they knew it was quite risky yet felt that they could execute it due to their confidence in their abilities. It's called hubris. Again, these are well-liked and respected people and I mean no offense to anyone.