Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[DaleC]

Unfortunately life will always bring persons out that will want to push the limits...

Saddest thing I've read all night.

 

[lowviz]

I noticed that also but now you made me think about it.

I want to push MY limits, I have no ability to push THE limits. I like the history of the Mid-Atlantic region and I like diving the wrecks that bring history to life. All of the really "interesting" wrecks are beyond my current reach. Maybe that is my best answer to tstormdiver.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Rebellion is another reason people go beyond their competence. Unfortunately there is nothing that we can say that will change the rebellious mind.

Formalized training is a good foundation but skill in the water is the crucial element. I have seen too many divers who went from course to course and hung their certificates in a place of honour on their walls but totally lacked skill in the water. I would rather dive with a competent OW or AOW diver than some instructors and DM's I have seen.

Dive numbers aren't the answer either. Too many either "overstate numbers" or have done mostly supervised dives in easy conditions. Some people are "naturals" and acquire skill with fewer dives. I want to see the skill in the water.

This has been an interesting reading... yes I read the whole thing before posting. I have found some posts very scarey from both sides of the issue. I have trouble believing the statement to the effect that cave training will save you "When you are in 0 viz and out of gas" in an overhead environment. I would suggest that situation wouldn't happen unless the diver had pushed the envelop too far no matter what their training!

Training, practice, well maintained gear, reading everything available and all the "planning" in the world will not protect you from the consequences of stupidity. In my world there is a colour between black and white. Blindly believing formal training or informal training is enough is foolish. We need adequate measures of both for whatever diving we intend to do!

 

[tstormdiver]

I agree, there is an "adrenaline junkie" effect involved and yes, some people are just plain stupid, but there is also a deeper seated reason: the sport is becoming over-formalized. All kinds of certificates, all kinds of prerequisites, all kinds of rules, half of them pointless, but it is hard for a beginner to figure out which half; complicated, expensive mess - and the whole system ignores simple, basic truth: skills under water do matter, fancy cards - don't.
Over the last 3 years I do most of my diving with my son, currently 15 years old AOW with over 150 dives now; he is very competent for his level of experience: very calm, very fit, great buoyancy, varied dives in his log book; but if I haven't seen it - I would not believe the degree of harassment he gets from some dive shops just because he happens to be young... Cannot go on this dive or that dive, because... you are too young; both easy dives, easier than some dives he already did; this rule comes from the same dive shop that does not teach their OW how to take off, put back on and clear their masks under water! It is quite hard for a young diver to get the right sense of proportion, what is risky, what is not; how to objectively assess skills and plan dives accordingly; arbitrary rules do not help - and it is a vital skill; people who do not possess it take crazy risks and do not even know it.
On one side: everybody and his dog offers dive training, on the other - finding good training for my son was not easy, took a lot of research and some recommendations from friends. For instance: part of OW training is done in swimming pools, cute and easy, but useless; how often divers dive in swimming pools? Just about never, swimming pool diving skills are not very useful... Training is not supposed to be easy, it is supposed to be effective. OK, done - we found a place with a very good instructor, which does everything in real water, worked. AOW - similar problem: buoyancy and navigation is waaaay to rudimentary; we ended up practicing both on our normal dives, then hiring a good instructor for an extra workshops on both topics, just to make sure that I am not teaching my son my own bad habits. With some extras and very good instructors both OW and AOW turned out to be very productive for my son, so - it can be done.
Unfortunately - it is perfectly possible to earn both certificates without actually learning how to dive; but the student is in no position to know it, to him - when the card says 'Advanced' it means exactly that: advanced skill level. Then the same student is presented with a ton of arbitrary rules on resort boats, finds most of them pointless, assumes all (or almost all) rules are pointless - and we have an accident waiting to happen...
Jerzy

---------- Post added December 8th, 2012 at 02:45 PM ----------

This is something worth preventing: why insurance companies decide what we can and cannot do? Government is much less of an issue, you can always dive in jurisdictions that do not harass divers, but all this insurance stuff is... well, optional. Contrary to popular opinion insurance is not "just part of the cost", it is an option one can take or leave.

Are you aware WHY the training agencies put limits on young divers? It's not to be arbitrary. There is still much that is not fully understood about the effects of pressure & breathing gases under pressure on grown, adult bodies, let alone a junior's growing body. Do you really want to risk your son's ( future) health?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Rebellion is another reason people go beyond their competence. Unfortunately there is nothing that we can say that will change the rebellious mind.

... and that is why we have Darwin Awards ...

Formalized training is a good foundation but skill in the water is the crucial element. I have seen too many divers who went from course to course and hung their certificates in a place of honour on their walls but totally lacked skill in the water. I would rather dive with a competent OW or AOW diver than some instructors and DM's I have seen.

That is, unfortunately, a side-effect of the business model used by many training agencies and their affiliate dive businesses. Instructors and dive businesses are "rewarded" not for training competent divers, but for training many divers. Some of the most coveted instructor rankings are determined by how many "certs" you sell. And while some instructors ... the majority, I believe ... are motivated by the desire to help their students achieve competence, others simply want to pursue those rankings by pushing as many people as they can through their classes. Some in fact cannot help students achieve a competence they, themselves, don't possess.

Dive numbers aren't the answer either. Too many either "overstate numbers" or have done mostly supervised dives in easy conditions. Some people are "naturals" and acquire skill with fewer dives. I want to see the skill in the water.

So do I ... and I will often ask someone who wants to take a class with me to go diving with me first, so I can see where they're at before we schedule the class. It's pretty common for me to suggest some things for them to work on and tell them to go get some more dives before we do the class. It's one way for me to assure that they get out of the class what they're hoping to ... you can't build on a poor foundation, after all ....

This has been an interesting reading... yes I read the whole thing before posting. I have found some posts very scarey from both sides of the issue. I have trouble believing the statement to the effect that cave training will save you "When you are in 0 viz and out of gas" in an overhead environment. I would suggest that situation wouldn't happen unless the diver had pushed the envelop too far no matter what their training!

It's a matter of degrees, but in cave diving that is not necessarily the case. Caves are like vines ... with endless branches that sometimes loop back on themselves. If you allow your mind to wander ... even for a short time ... you can find yourself lost. And that's how cave divers run out of air ... there is no option to abort the dive and surface. One doesn't have to exceed their training to get into trouble in a cave ... one has only to stop paying attention for a minute or so. That's why the training is so rigorous. Zero vis is very easy to achieve ... especially in places where the bottom is silt. All it takes is one careless fin kick ... or putting your hand somewhere it doesn't belong. That's why cave training is so rigorous in excellent buoyancy control and precision finning techniques. In caves, you don't have to exceed your training to get yourself into a really bad place ... you just have to make a mistake at a bad time. That's one reason why trained cave divers get so adamantly angry when they see untrained people going into caves ... it's way too easy to put yourself into a situation you can't get yourself out of without even realizing you're doing it.

Training, practice, well maintained gear, reading everything available and all the "planning" in the world will not protect you from the consequences of stupidity. In my world there is a colour between black and white. Blindly believing formal training or informal training is enough is foolish. We need adequate measures of both for whatever diving we intend to do!

Classes don't teach you how to dive ... diving teaches you how to dive. Classes teach you how to learn. They provide you the "tools" in the form of knowledge and mechanics of the skill sets required for the specific type of diving the class is designed for. Learning to use those tools properly takes practice ... usually far more practice than the class provides. Classes are an artificial environment ... one where you focus more on doing what the instructor wants than applying your skills in the way you will once you leave the class. The "craft" of applying those skils ... and the understanding that comes from applying them ... happens after the class is over.

Good diving practices require the knowledge that comes from classes, the skill that comes from diving, and the judgment that comes from common sense. You can't be a safe diver without a reasonable combination of all three ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[billgraham]

I have gone beyond my certificates.... I , pentrate wrecks and caves... I dive in a drysuit ... never had offical training.... buddy just has his openwater...


I also solo dive, but its no different then going surfing or swiming by yourself...


However, From OW to a deep diver with wreck etc, can be done in a few weeks training and probably totalling something like 40 dives. How does is this person any more prepared then me?

If you think nothing is going to happen because you have every qualification then thats worse...

I also rock climb, Mountain Bike, Surf - These are just as dangerous as diving but I never had official training.

HAVE YOU REALLY READ WHAT YOU POSTED? RREALLY? You do0n't sound rational. Please post your real name so we can put a name with the post when we see or read of the news article about you demise.[/QUOTE]


I've been surfing my entire life and it is nowhere near as dangerous as technical diving.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have trouble believing the statement to the effect that cave training will save you "When you are in 0 viz and out of gas" in an overhead environment. I would suggest that situation wouldn't happen unless the diver had pushed the envelop too far no matter what their training!

It's a matter of degrees, but in cave diving that is not necessarily the case. Caves are like vines ... with endless branches that sometimes loop back on themselves. If you allow your mind to wander ... even for a short time ... you can find yourself lost. And that's how cave divers run out of air ... there is no option to abort the dive and surface. One doesn't have to exceed their training to get into trouble in a cave ... one has only to stop paying attention for a minute or so.

Bob is correct in what he said, but he left out a key example. Many of you know that Edd Sorenson recently saved a young woman who went into a silty cavern area of a cave and got lost in the silt. She was clearly diving beyond her competence. What you may not know is there were two trained cave divers in the cavern at the time, doing their decompression stop in an area that was perfectly clear because with the skills they had learned in their cave training, the had avoided stirring up the silt. As soon as they saw the girl charge into the cave, flutter-kicking away, they knew things were going to get bad quickly. They used the skills they had been taught to get to the line they had laid for just such an emergency--another result of their training. As they used the skills they used in their training to find their way out, they encountered her brother, totally lost and in a panic. They pulled him out with them.

I was exiting a cave a while ago when we passed a group of divers entering the cave. The next few minutes were a bit dicey for us as we worked our way through the silt they had left behind them.

When I was in Truuk Lagoon a few years ago, we all learned that if we were going to penetrate a wreck, there were two of our fellow divers we did not want in out group if we wanted to see anything.

Zero degree visibility in an overhead environment can occur without one iota of fault of the trapped diver.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I was exiting a cave a while ago when we passed a group of divers entering the cave. The next few minutes were a bit dicey for us as we worked our way through the silt they had left behind them.

This same thing happened to me at Madison Blue three years ago ... except that the people silting the place out were a class, with a very well-known instructor. When it comes to cave training it's not only important to get the training ... it really matters who you train with ...

... Bob (Grateful DIver)

 

[Slamfire]

I haven't read this entire thread, so in my ignorance of the discussion I want to contribute the following:

There could be a good amount of a generational rift factoring into this topic. Just think about how the culture of "Safety First" has been engrained and mass marketed to these latest generations. And you have to take whatever is mass marketed with a grain of salt, because the ultimate goal of the firm is to maximize shareholder wealth. And yes, this goal supersedes the safety of you, the customer. The scuba industry is no exception. Your safety will be measured in terms of legal liability. Your training will be designed in order to maximize profits out of you. The goods that you will receive in return will be highly skewed in the light of this reality.

Therefore it is up to you to wake up and smell the napalm. NOBODY will have your best interests at heart more than you. Mass marketed training is no substitute for personal accountability. "It's not the agency, It's the instructor..." Yes, there are some great instructors out there that do it for the love of the activity and are not so badly skewed towards the mass marketing behemoth. But I would venture to go further and say, "it's not the instructor, it's you". Take on personal accountability of your training, skills AND your safety. This should supersede any "rules" big commercial entities write for your "safety".

Going back to the potential generational rift, I would like to leave you with two visual aids that exemplify my point:

Spoiler

 

[DaleC]

And then there is the case of Conrad "Connie" Limbaugh - one of those people who's spirit I try to emulate:

http://www.internationallegendsofdiving.com/FeaturedLegends/Conrad_Limbaugh_bio.htm

One of the first,
no formal training,
literally wrote the book for Americans,
lead the field for years,
died in a cave.

From day one he was diving beyond his training. Was he sensible, reckless, an icon or a precautionary tale. Hard to square that circle. His "mistake" was not diving beyond his training but rather; diving an unknown locale while relying on a local guide. Good thing no formally trained divers of today do that sort of thing.