#$%#$%@# Dive Training!

[Genesis]

Nowhere I have I stated that a shop should be "forced" to accept that someone understands Nitrox and sell it to them.

I have stated that given the current agency position that Nitrox requires no dives, that it is indeed all academic, and that it is indeed exactly the same gas you breathe when you dive air (but in different proportions) that this should be part of OW.

I have further proposed a rather "loose" definition of reasonable buoyancy control, in a separate thread, but DMB has conveniently ignored that TOO, and proceeded with this ad-hominen attack instead.

Never mind that none of this pure fabrication on his part has anything to do with any position that I have actually taken.

One has to wonder exactly what DMBs problem is with a specific standard for buoyancy control, perhaps even the one I proposed.

After all, is there not one for mask removal/replacement? Specifically, if you choke and can't do it, you don't pass.

Or do you?

Hmmmmm.... naw, I won't go into what I actually witnessed in that area on some of those recent cert dives when I was in the water. DMB will just tkae that out of context too.

Let's just say that its a good thing that those students actually CAN remove and replace their masks. A couple of them I know can - the others?

I hope they can.

 

[divermasterB]

Not all agencies have Nitrox as a "No dives" course.

NAUI for instance requires at least two dives. This is for demonstrating planning and execution of a dive, as well as the dive related activities (analysis, labeling, etc) associated with Nitrox.

I would suggest that you research before you make these claims.

Quite honestly, most beginning divers are not interested in Nitrox, so what is the sense in adding something that most of the students have no interest in.

 

[divermasterB]

I gotta admit that Genesis's conspiracy theory rhetoric has sucked me in.

I keep getting frustrated because every time someone makes a valid point contradicting Genesis, he changes the subject.

This debate has gone through the following phases.

1) Standards of Buoyancy Control
2) Poor Instructor
3) Instructor/Shop conspiracy
4) Agency Standards
5) Nitrox Certification and how his girlfriend doesn't need to get training



Genesis has a very tired argument that is constantly regurgitated no matter what thread or topic you are reading. I made the mistake of trying to engage him in this debate, but found out quickly that Genesis is not interested in hearing anything other than his own opinion, and in the face of a valid argument, he can simply change his target, and keep using the same tired logic.

So, realizing that some people just want to be p*ssed off at something and that some minds will not change no matter what logic they are presented with, I am going to excuse myself from this discussion.

Genesis, if you were offended by anything I have said, I apologize. It is obvious that you are passionate about diving and have a lot of ideas (good and bad) that you firmly belive in. I find that admirable. Once again, I renew my suggestion that if you really want to influence the system, affect change, and make a difference, that you put some of your energy to better use and get in the game.

Also, I would encourage you to familiarize yourself a little more with other training agencies and the standards they use. Many of your arguments have been based upon at most two of the training agencies.

 

[pt40fathoms]

An OW certification is nothing more than a license to learn. "Safe" diving practices must be the primary focus of the training; "good" diving practices are secondary. Teaching buoyancy control skills to a level that would make the diver a near "expert" under the water before declaring the person ready and issuing an OW certification is not only impractical, but also silly! If I had to sit in the right seat until a student was "perfect" in holding an altitude, nailing every landing and performing every skill to near perfection. I'd never graduate a student. I approach teaching diving in exactly the same way. When they show they understand and are capable of working on "perfecting" the skill, I move on and encourage the student to continue to practice the skill.

In short, when I am an instructor, I am not a mentor. That’s why new divers should buddy up with *good* experienced divers, and why new pilots sit right seat. The concept is simple; complaining about instructors not churning out "perfect" graduates merely shows a lack of understanding for this simple and basic concept.

 

[MikeFerrara]

coliseum once bubbled...
Mike,

"Unless it was a misprint you may have just proved my point by stating that you INFLATE the BC to go up." I was trying to point out that this is something that should NOT be done...

P.S. someone mentioned MASTERING skills... I disagree, People... the point of taking OW course is for RECREATIONAL DIVING.. I also agree with PADI's definition of MASTERY LEARNING, there is a big difference between MASTERY LEARNING and MATERING something...

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you should wing through Buoyancy or any other skill... but I do believe that people MASTER SKILLS with practice, and unless the OW course costs $5000 and you are prepared to spend 3 months teaching a student how to dive, then it would not be possible... again, this is Recreational diving...

I'll buy that but as I said perfection isn't the point. My point is that there isn't any reason that certified divers or students in OW should be crawling all over the bottom. IMO, that doesn't meet the agency standard for mastery learning even though many instructors except it as long as they manage to hover for the minimum required 1 minute.

Demonstrating good buoyancy control and buddy skills is a requirement for each training dive. What I see all the time in the water makes me believe that instructors aren't meeting those requirements. Some wording in the standards is subjective enough that instructors can and do take advantage. Some do it because they don't know any better and think that's really the way it should be done and others just don't care.

 

[MikeFerrara]

pt40fathoms once bubbled...
An OW certification is nothing more than a license to learn. "Safe" diving practices must be the primary focus of the training; "good" diving practices are secondary. Teaching buoyancy control skills to a level that would make the diver a near "expert" under the water before declaring the person ready and issuing an OW certification is not only impractical, but also silly! If I had to sit in the right seat until a student was "perfect" in holding an altitude, nailing every landing and performing every skill to near perfection. I'd never graduate a student. I approach teaching diving in exactly the same way. When they show they understand and are capable of working on "perfecting" the skill, I move on and encourage the student to continue to practice the skill.

In short, when I am an instructor, I am not a mentor. That’s why new divers should buddy up with *good* experienced divers, and why new pilots sit right seat. The concept is simple; complaining about instructors not churning out "perfect" graduates merely shows a lack of understanding for this simple and basic concept.

I'll call you. OW certification is not just a license to learn. It says that you have the requisite skills to dive independantly. A diver who needs to crawl on the bottom or fight to stay off it because their not neutral hasn't done that.

Buoyancy control is a requirement for safe diving if you buy that safe diving is diving where buddies stay together and rapid ascents are avoided.

My classes don't silt out the quarry. My student do their mask clearing and air sharing in mid water. It's not silly. It does not take a rediculous amount of time.

Performing skills while planred on the bottom serves no purpose (except as an intermediate step) and doesn't count for anything. We dive mid water. Midwater is where we need to be able to replace a mask, share air or deal with a free flowing regulator. That's the skill level we need prior to being turned loose to dive without supervision.

Everything else is just excuses and whining about what can't be done eveeen though some are doing it.

What I see in the water every time out is pathetic. The bar has been lowered so far that I'm against calling it diving. It might be breathing underwater but it is NOT diving.

 

[Genesis]

Everything else is just excuses and whining about what can't be done eveeen though some are doing it.

As I said before, Mike, six months ago I would have (and did!) argue with you about this.

I no longer do. I not only agree with you, I go further and am willing to state that the current state of training turns loose divers who are unsafe at any depth below that at which a rapid, blow-up ascent is unsafe - which is about 15'.

Further, for those shops that teach in an environment where the local diving is all beyond 60', and their own boats take people to depths of 70, 80 or even approaching 90' with nothing more than an OW card, such a card issued by one of those shops is being sold as sufficient to dive in those local conditions.

Yet what is being provided simply is NOT.

 

[jbichsel]

coliseum once bubbled...
Mike,

"Unless it was a misprint you may have just proved my point by stating that you INFLATE the BC to go up." I was trying to point out that this is something that should NOT be done...

P.S. someone mentioned MASTERING skills... I disagree, People... the point of taking OW course is for RECREATIONAL DIVING.. I also agree with PADI's definition of MASTERY LEARNING, there is a big difference between MASTERY LEARNING and MATERING something...

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you should wing through Buoyancy or any other skill... but I do believe that people MASTER SKILLS with practice, and unless the OW course costs $5000 and you are prepared to spend 3 months teaching a student how to dive, then it would not be possible... again, this is Recreational diving...

So if an instructor fails to properly train and/or assess a student in the "Mastery Learning" segment on one or more skills, and then rushes that or those students to get them throught OW, and one or more of those students gets DCS or dies, what is that called?

"Recreational DCS"?
"Recreational Dying"?
"Recreational AGE"?

Just beacause people are diving "recreationally", does not mean we need to become less vigilant or relax our standards.

You go right ahead and take the more relaxed, recreational approach.

I believe that myself and others will keep trying to raise the bar, not lower it to barely skim the top of a "recreational corpse".

 

[divermasterB]

jbichsel once bubbled...


I believe that myself and others will keep trying to raise the bar, not lower it to barely skim the top of a "recreational corpse".

Yet the agency that you are an AI with, keeps lowering the bar.

 

[DSJ]

pt40fathoms once bubbled...
An OW certification is nothing more than a license to learn.
<snip>
In short, when I am an instructor, I am not a mentor. That’s why new divers should buddy up with *good* experienced divers, and why new pilots sit right seat. The concept is simple; complaining about instructors not churning out "perfect" graduates merely shows a lack of understanding for this simple and basic concept.

New pilots don't sit in the right seat. New to an airline perhaps, but the equivalent of a new OW diver is a new private pilot. New pilots, like new divers, are in total command of their fate. New pilots also take friends and family along right after getting their ticket. New divers do the same.

We agree that safety IS the issue, though we disagree about what constitutes safe. Would you let a member of your family graduate from such a class and dive with another member of that same class? That is how OW training is billed.

David