Diver Dies in Long Sault

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The Tick once bubbled...



What you have just spouted here I find this the most insidious form of slander possible. One does not interpret standards you teach to them or exceed them. What possible good is there in mentioning a second past fatality with out mentioning what the situation was or what the out come of the investigation was? Do you in fact know what happened or are you a person with an ax to grind and are using a horrible tragedy to take a pot shot at anotherwise outstanding store?

I contend that the student was a victim of the training agency in question. He was fresh off of his OW course with no interviening dives. I lay most of the blame here on the instructor who signed the original 'C' card and the agency whose framework is so leinient as to allow him/her to sign it. There is no way in the world that a student such as this could disguise his discomfort in the the water thoughout a whole OW without raising some flag in the mind of the original instructor.

Next comes a training cirriculum that allows and encourages students to take exactly this route. This is largely a financial issue as dive shops make nothing on the OW course but they can charge the same bucks or more for a two day AOW plus the extra gear sales that advanced students need. A store can finally make some coin. If KDS did not take this student then he would have found someone else to do it in fairly short order. This student, by the way way, came to KDS straight off off is OW from another Ottawa store whom unlike you, GTAdiver, I will out of courtesy not name. I think it was only KDS's unfortunate luck to be the next store in the area to be teaching a AOW.

So GTAdiver rather than make rather broad slanerous statements in reference to any dive facility why not call a spade a spade and have a look at the root causes as some other more reasonable folks have sugested in this forum?
Ya its simple the root cause is a dive shop putting more focus on money than safety. Its funny that the newspapers listed the charter boat but not the store. The other stores should not be tarnished by the actions of one. You blame the first instructor who certified the student to 60 feet. The store picked the wreck site and must take some of the responsibility or are you contending that an instructor would pick a site that they had not dove on before. You asked about the first accident...it happened on the wreck of the Daryaw (another inappropriate site to take an advanced student). Its not slanderous when it is a fact. I have no axe to grind with this store but it is hurting other PADI instructors who try to do a good job. I ran into a student that was taken to a quarry with a max depth of 8 feet for his rescue training. An unconcious diver recovery from 8 feet is hardly appropriate. Thanks but I will stick with the Toronto and Kingston stores.
 
The Tick once bubbled...



What you have just spouted here I find this the most insidious form of slander possible. One does not interpret standards you teach to them or exceed them. What possible good is there in mentioning a second past fatality with out mentioning what the situation was or what the out come of the investigation was? Do you in fact know what happened or are you a person with an ax to grind and are using a horrible tragedy to take a pot shot at anotherwise outstanding store?


So GTAdiver rather than make rather broad slanerous statements in reference to any dive facility why not call a spade a spade and have a look at the root causes as some other more reasonable folks have sugested in this forum?


Tick,

This is very well stated and I second everything you have written. I would like to add one more item that needs to be mentioned as well. In reviewing this thread I am overwhelmed by the number of people that have the ""inside scope"" on this event. You all seem to have this information first hand from the second hand.

I know two of the staff at KDS extremely well and yet I have little or no information regarding this incident other then what I have seen on this thread. Please show some retraint regarding the heresay as it merits nothing and helps no one. Before you climb back on your soapboxes please think critically and act responsibly.

I too extend my heartfelt condolences to all involved especially the gentlemans family.

Regards
sisterJ
 
taz22 once bubbled...
I will refrain from commenting on this tragic event and let the investigation take place and then comment after all the "facts" are made public. I trust that most on this board would agree with this course of action.
Well said Tazzy
 
I agree that we need to learn the "facts" otherwise we are just speculating/gossiping and nothing can be learned from this.

My concern is that we will never learn the facts. Will the information be "kept under wraps" because it is sensitive and possibly harmful to the Scuba industry?

I understand the desire to have this information. Some people may be just morbiddly curious but I think most of us genuinely want to know so we can be safer/better informed divers. Isn't this why we take more courses after all?

I'm very sad for this divers' family and all those that witnessed the accident.

:(
 
GTADiver once bubbled...

Ya its simple the root cause is a dive shop putting more focus on money than safety. Its funny that the newspapers listed the charter boat but not the store. The other stores should not be tarnished by the actions of one. You blame the first instructor who certified the student to 60 feet. The store picked the wreck site and must take some of the responsibility or are you contending that an instructor would pick a site that they had not dove on before. You asked about the first accident...it happened on the wreck of the Daryaw (another inappropriate site to take an advanced student). Its not slanderous when it is a fact. I have no axe to grind with this store but it is hurting other PADI instructors who try to do a good job. I ran into a student that was taken to a quarry with a max depth of 8 feet for his rescue training. An unconcious diver recovery from 8 feet is hardly appropriate. Thanks but I will stick with the Toronto and Kingston stores.


GTA,

What you have posted above is conjecture and merely a conclusion deduced from defective and/or presumptive evidence. It is meaningless.

Your thinking is flawed. If you are going to be certified as an advanced diver you have to be able to do the dives. There are recreational divers all over the Daryaw everyday of the summer season. It is quite a well controlled site. On decent divers have a wall on one side and the wreck on the other. The max depth is 75ft. The water is warm approx 60f in October. It is roped for pulling against the current. The only real stress factor is current. And if you are going to be diving in current then sooner or later you must do training dives in an evironment that has current. The Daryaw is a reasonable training site. It has limited surface traffic and is very close to shore. ALso it is not a heavy working dive. My RMV for this site was 0.56 cfm. My buddy's RMV was pretty much the same.

Once again you failed to provide any detail regarding this second mentioned incident. If you would like to discuss this incident start with the acident report and present us all with the accident analysis.

sisterJ
 
sisterJ once bubbled...



GTA,

What you have posted above is conjecture and merely a conclusion deduced from defective and/or presumptive evidence. It is meaningless.

Your thinking is flawed. If you are going to be certified as an advanced diver you have to be able to do the dives. There are recreational divers all over the Daryaw everyday of the summer season. It is quite a well controlled site. On decent divers have a wall on one side and the wreck on the other. The max depth is 75ft. The water is warm approx 60f in October. It is roped for pulling against the current. The only real stress factor is current. And if you are going to be diving in current then sooner or later you must do training dives in an evironment that has current. The Daryaw is a reasonable training site. It has limited surface traffic and is very close to shore. ALso it is not a heavy working dive. My RMV for this site was 0.56 cfm. My buddy's RMV was pretty much the same.

Once again you failed to provide any detail regarding this second mentioned incident. If you would like to discuss this incident start with the acident report and present us all with the accident analysis.

sisterJ
The Daryaw is a beautiful wreck but it is deeper than 75 feet and as GTA said it is not a spot to take someone for an advanced check out. There are better wrecks ie the Keystorm.
 
This is quite the thread.

We have people advocating more government regulation (just look at Quebec's recent steps to evidence on how well that would likely work) and others attacking training agencies for being too soft.

Is scuba a perfect industry? Hardly.
Are there instructors who are better than others? Sure.
Are there procedures in place to find and prevent poor instructors from teaching? You betcha.
Would they make it hard for a crappy instructor to continue? Definitely.
Do these steps ever actually get taken and enforced? Absolutely.
Is it in the best interest of the training agencies to make sure poor instructors don't teach? That's too easy.

It amazes me how people who have never been in the role of an instructor seem to feel they can can dictate how to teach scuba. Personally, my hat goes off to anyone who can pull all of the aspects of being a successful scuba instructor together, and make it safe, fun, educational, enjoyable, entertaining, and life altering in a positive way.
 
GTADiver once bubbled...

Ya its simple the root cause is a dive shop putting more focus on money than safety. Its funny that the newspapers listed the charter boat but not the store. The other stores should not be tarnished by the actions of one. You blame the first instructor who certified the student to 60 feet. The store picked the wreck site and must take some of the responsibility or are you contending that an instructor would pick a site that they had not dove on before. You asked about the first accident...it happened on the wreck of the Daryaw (another inappropriate site to take an advanced student). Its not slanderous when it is a fact. I have no axe to grind with this store but it is hurting other PADI instructors who try to do a good job. I ran into a student that was taken to a quarry with a max depth of 8 feet for his rescue training. An unconcious diver recovery from 8 feet is hardly appropriate. Thanks but I will stick with the Toronto and Kingston stores.

As Dr. Evil said to his son Scotty..."You just don't get it, do you son?".

Riddle me this - You are so adament about placing blame on a store (the store that hosted the AOW) what about the guilt/greed/complicity/lackadaisical training standards/etc of the store (and instructor and agency) that provided him with the 'C' card that allowed him to die?

Get your head out of your butt GTAdiver, this is an argument that you cannot win.

On the other hand I must agree whole heartedly on your musings of the rescue training. Few of the rescue courses I have seen and even the one I took many moons ago reflected the real life situations that I have witnessed and participated in since. Perhaps even you are advocating stricter standards?
 
after reading all the post on this thread it still blows me away how people jump so fast to conclusions after theres been diving accident/fatality..people right away seem to think that they either know what happened or that they know who to blame, be it the store or the instructors ect ect..any diver and i do say ANY diver who gets their c card can at any time go into the water and have something go wrong..thats just the way it is..you can go thru the motions a 99 times with no problems but on the 10oth run into trouble..will some get through it ok yes they will while others will not.instructors can only teach them the basics and what they do with it after is their resposibility.im not saying that instructors shouldnt be held accountable for the WAY they teach..all im saying is that if some one gets there c-card and then does something stupid to cause harm to themselves then where does the blame lie..the instructors?no..the blame lies solely on the diver..take it from me i learned it the hard way..they always told me to dive with someone..did i listen ..NO and i almost paid for it..do i blame the person who taught me?no i dont i blame me and thats all there is to it..so lets stop this laying the blame trip and find out exactly what happened and then go from there.as for you experinaced divers out there and there are alot im sure..just because your experienced doesnt mean you automatically know what happened when an accident happens..its not always cut and dry..enough said..
 
this being the second fatality they have had on an advanced course.

You asked about the first accident...it happened on the wreck of the Daryaw (another inappropriate site to take an advanced student). Its not slanderous when it is a fact. I have no axe to grind with this store but it is hurting other PADI instructors who try to do a good job.

You may want to check your sources Mr. GTA Diver. The AOW course that was ran on the Daryaw was organized and instructed by one of the Ottawa dive clubs, not KDS. The only involvement KDS had with it was to charter a boat to them and provide a boat operator.

Kevin
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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