Diver dies in San Diego

[river_sand_bar]

The AirSource/AirXS2/etc isn't designed to share with your buddy. The inflator integrated secondary is designed for you to use while you give your buddy your primary. People will argue all day long about the problems with such a design, but it's out there.

I absolutly agree.... and when the inflator-secondary is on your mouth and your breathing off of it... you are unable to use your b/c air release button on your inflator hose.... thats what I am talking about.. and thats when you have to use you right shoulder dump valve.

I wonder if the fact and statements from the son will ever get realeased...

 

[Rick Murchison]

... and when the inflator-secondary is on your mouth and your breathing off of it... you are unable to use your b/c air release button on your inflator hose....

Absolutely untrue. The dump on integrated second stages still works just fine when using the reg, as does the power inflator.
Rick

 

[river_sand_bar]

Absolutely untrue. The dump on integrated second stages still works just fine when using the reg, as does the power inflator.
Rick

True Rick... Yes, it does work, however, it seems to me that with the reg in your mouth it may not, now, be the highest point to which air can be dumped from the b/c.

When I normally dump air from my inflator hose, its held up high, so to insure all air is dumped. But with inflator hose/reg in mouth it is no longer the highest point, therefore, the right shoulder dump valve now becomes the hight point to dump air.

 

[I Dive]

I absolutly agree.... and when the inflator-secondary is on your mouth and your breathing off of it... you are unable to use your b/c air release button on your inflator hose.... thats what I am talking about.. and thats when you have to use you right shoulder dump valve.

I'm not sure what kind of gear you are referring to, but I can breath from my alternate while dumping air from BC. I can't imagine a reputable gear manufacturer putting something on the market that would not permit this and I certainly would not purchase any gear that would not allow this nor dive with somone who had gear that would not allow this. Anyone who is diving with gear that won't allow this is not somoene I ever want to dive with...

 

[ianw2]

You know, these questiosn about being able to breath on an inflator/secondary are logical questions for those of us who have not used such a device. We are used to holding the inflator head above us and well away from our mouths when we dump air during our ascent. Based on our own experience, the questions are only natural. I'm glad you are able to tell us that it is possible to breath and dump at the same time.

Which would bring on the next logical question: How?

Do you press the deflate with the head in your mouth? If so, how does that affect the breathing on the head?

Do you yank the dump valve cable? Having had one go on a BC of my own and seeing two more break in the past six months, this would concern me.

Do you use a diiferent dump valve?

What techniques have you developed?

Ian

 

[Rick Murchison]

You know, these questiosn about being able to breath on an inflator/secondary are logical questions for those of us who have not used such a device. We are used to holding the inflator head above us and well away from our mouths when we dump air during our ascent. Based on our own experience, the questions are only natural. I'm glad you are able to tell us that it is possible to breath and dump at the same time.

Which would bring on the next logical question: How?

Do you press the deflate with the head in your mouth? If so, how does that affect the breathing on the head?

Do you yank the dump valve cable? Having had one go on a BC of my own and seeing two more break in the past six months, this would concern me.

Do you use a diiferent dump valve?

What techniques have you developed?

Ian

Using an integrated safe second:
(1) Since the OOA buddy is on a short hose, once the initial stress of getting to a reliable air source is somewhat abated, a position somewhere between the donor's right chest and right back and close aboard is most comfortable. Eye-to-eye contact isn't really necessary as hand signals can easily be positioned in front of each others' masks for easy viewing.
(2) If you as donor would like to use the "normal" dump located near the safe second, then a vertical body position ascent is optimal, which keeps the mouthpiece level with to slightly above the left shoulder valve and allows the free flow of gas from the BC bladder when the dump valve is opened.
(3) I wouldn't advise inhaling while dumping as you'd get "BC air" mixed with fresh tank air, but it probably wouldn't hurt you unless you'd not maintained your BC very well and there were nasties growing inside it.
(4) While there's no need to do anything special when dumping as the dumped gas will exit the exhaust valve, many folks find it easier to "loosen their lips" around the mouthpiece a bit and let some of the air escape there as well.
Bottom line: with just a little practice an integrated safe second is a perfectly viable alternative to the classic safe second/40 inch hose in open water recreational diving.
Rick

 

[Clammy]

I'm now on a bp/w with a 7 foot hose and a necklaced reg now but because I still use a bc with air/2 when diving wet, I practice this occasionally (very very occasionally) with a friend of mine.

With the air/2 in your mouth it's still the highest point on your body unless you are inverted. But since it's not AS high you may not feel the air dumping as fast. That being said, I use the right shoulder dump, it works fine. This isn't the "ideal" situation. I mean trying to figure out where you are in the water column when you may not be able to see your computer/gauge clearly, especially if you have a console, is not an easy task. Trying to see anything while your buddy is 6 inches from your face and you are grabbing onto them is also not ideal or easy.

 

[scubajcf]

Bottom line: with just a little practice an integrated safe second is a perfectly viable alternative to the classic safe second/40 inch hose in open water recreational diving.
Rick

Hi Rick,

I think your bottom line says it all. With a little practice, you will become a much safer diver. In fact, this is what I see is the biggest problem with Scuba diving today. After OW class, people do not practice their life support skills. In many instances, the Open Water course Alt Air Ascent is the last place most people practice their skill. That means they have only done this skill a handful of times, they have done it while being taught multiple other skills, and most likely they have done it from very shallow depths.

A few months (years) go by and they are in a situation where they need to recall this skill. Not only do they have no muscle memory, they have probably forgotten the key steps to it as well. Like venting air from your BCD while ascending, etc.

Throw in equipment familiary, doing the alt air ascent from depth versus the shallows, mid water ascent versus doing it near a line or wall, surge and current. Plus, the fact that this is an emergency versus a drill where the donor and receiver have PLENTY of air in their tank, you are lucky we don't have more accidents.

We hear the mantra of "go pro", "go master", "get more training". How about we start emphasizing skill reviews and workshops to help people keep their skills from rusting.

Other advice: dive often, be trained to be self sufficient and carry a credible pony bottle for just these occassions!


Dive safe and have fun!
jcf






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[KnightDiver]

It's easier said than done. Try this scenario: A diver is low on air (500 PSI) at 100 fsw and he/she gives you the low on air sign with their eyes are almost ready to come out of their sockets. You calm them down as you switch to your air2 and give them your primary, you start the ascent with a firm grip on their BCD, and the diver has no concern for their buoyancy so YOU have to dump both your air and theirs all while trying to keep the diver from bolting to the surface. This is doable, but difficult.

Safe diving!

 

[KnightDiver]

Quote:=Originally Posted by Rick Murchison
Absolutely untrue. The dump on integrated second stages still works just fine when using the reg, as does the power inflator.
Rick

It's easier said than done. Try this scenario: A diver is low on air (500 PSI) at 100 fsw and he/she gives you the low on air sign with their eyes are almost ready to come out of their sockets. You calm them down as you switch to your air2 and give them your primary, you start the ascent with a firm grip on their BCD, and the diver has no concern for their buoyancy so YOU have to dump both your air and theirs all while trying to keep the diver from bolting to the surface. This is doable, but difficult.

Safe diving!