Diver liabilities

[cldSCUBA]

WOW... Thank you all for the information. This issue is very complex, and I had know idea. I just wanted to make a difference, dive, and get some good experience. It all makes sense now that I see the big picture. Thank you all for being professionals in your responses, this really helps. What gets me is they have been doing this for so long, (Nothing tragic has happened YET) and they probably will not change until something happens.

Thank you for the prospective on the Rescue Diver Cert, to me it is a big accomplishment, but in the diving community it’s really nothing but an awareness class that every diver should have.... Is that a fair statement? :huh:

I am starting to look at this a little different now. I am going to ask some questions and if there not willing to put the dive team on the Rescue Squad roster, and give them the same benefits, then I will just have to continue Rec diving, until the opportunity arises somewhere else.

Thank you,

Corey

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Corey, your observation regarding the rescue diver cert is right on. With the addition of having CPR/First Aid skills that everyone regardless of whether they dive or not should have. You learn alot, depending on the instructor, about what to do if the crap hits the fan with you, your buddy, or another diver. But it was drilled into me in my rescue class that this in no way prepares me for PSD situations. I would like to get the extra training but as I'm not a member of a dept the instructors near me won't take individual students. You need to be part of a dept or team. Heck even my local volunteer fire dept does not take just anybody. When I was a kid the town I lived in had a volunteer fire dept that had regular members but if there was a fire and they were short handed anybody who showed up was likely to be given a coat, helmet, and told to hang onto the hose or if in case of a brush fire, which we had alot of in the summer, kids like me who were 11,12,13 yrs old were given a shovel or one of those portable 5 gallon water sprayers and told to go at it. Today they'd be up on child endangerment charges. But anyway good luck with your team and hopefully they will do right by all of you.

 

[Gary D.]

WOW... Thank you all for the information. This issue is very complex, and I had know idea. I just wanted to make a difference, dive, and get some good experience. It all makes sense now that I see the big picture. Thank you all for being professionals in your responses, this really helps. What gets me is they have been doing this for so long, (Nothing tragic has happened YET) and they probably will not change until something happens.

Most departments don't realize what is involved and how complex and dangerous it can be. You are not alone in wanting to make a difference as that's what we all want. We don't do this for the poor victim we do it for the survivors.

[/QUOTE=cldSCUBA]Thank you for the prospective on the Rescue Diver Cert, to me it is a big accomplishment, but in the diving community it’s really nothing but an awareness class that every diver should have.... Is that a fair statement? :huh:

Corey[/QUOTE]


Yes, Rescue is a very important piece of sport training. On my team we only go as far as OW then right into PSD. If you have read some of my prior training posts you can see just how fast our guys can progress and just how hard we hit them. They might not be the most graceful in the water but when the flies hit the Westinghouse I don't have to worry about them getting back to the boat or shore.

I hope you don't feel as if we are trying to knock the wind out of your sails or belittle you in any way because we aren't. This is a very tough business and most here know I will not sugar coat it.

So your mission is, if you choose to accept it, is get the team and the department turned around and get some of the proper training. This message will self destruct in 5 seconds.

Gary D.

 

[Scubaguy62]

Getting the wrong people involved can cause a lot of liability problems.

Gary, I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean liability when a rescue is being effected, I can certainly agree. But in the example of a body recovery, I just don't see the liability, unless you refer to the potential of a wrongful death, gross negligence, or whichever, action by cldScuba's family should, God forbid, something happen to him, and which the signing of a simple release from liability and assumption of risk will take care of. Perhaps you mean the potential for the spoiling of forensic evidence, which would be a concern, IMHO, if cldScuba was to be doing the recovery alone and unsupervised by a properly trained PSD and/or forensic diver.

Otherwise, I am in full agreement with the concensus here. Although, and maybe it is because of bias, I believe we shouldn't dismiss the opinion of Dive Partner1. At least in the legal purview, he seems to be the most qualified to make the statemtent.

 

[Gary D.]

Gary, I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean liability when a rescue is being effected, I can certainly agree. But in the example of a body recovery, I just don't see the liability, unless you refer to the potential of a wrongful death, gross negligence, or whichever, action by cldScuba's family should, God forbid, something happen to him, and which the signing of a simple release from liability and assumption of risk will take care of. Perhaps you mean the potential for the spoiling of forensic evidence, which would be a concern, IMHO, if cldScuba was to be doing the recovery alone and unsupervised by a properly trained PSD and/or forensic diver.

Otherwise, I am in full agreement with the concensus here. Although, and maybe it is because of bias, I believe we shouldn't dismiss the opinion of Dive Partner1. At least in the legal purview, he seems to be the most qualified to make the statemtent.

There are a lot of problem issues and you cover several of them.

From the information we got out of the original post, cldSCUBA didn’t say anything about diving with the team, training with the team or even hanging out with the team. All that was mentioned was being called in to assist a team.

Having only the information from the original post, could you or anyone else here, in good conscience, actually think it’s a good idea to grab a sport diver and ask them to help with a search and/or recovery?

Is this guy/gal prepared for this, are they stable enough, do they have the proper gear for the task at hand, will they have the proper assistance in and out of the water? Are they a diver that contacted someone, who knows some one that decides to have them do a job?

If some one has never demonstrated their ability IMHO it’s not a good idea to use them for either surface or in water activity. You don’t need to be an attorney to figure out that liability issues would be increased.

We learn from our, and others, mistakes. 30 years ago we didn’t have the liability issues we have now. If you spilled a cup of hot coffee on your lap you were clumsy and it was no body’s fault but your own and you didn’t look for some one to pay for it.

The Sheriff did at one time call all the local sport divers in to do a search and/or recovery. BUT, if something happened the thinking at the time was oh well he/she screwed up so live with it.

An example of this happened to another Local City department not all that many years ago. A reserve officer, on duty, in a marked unit was hit head-on by a drunk driver. It is a miracle he survived. Being young and not ready to die he fought it and survived. But he will be disabled for the rest of his life. In the end he was left hanging out to dry and now he is a welfare case. He was a reserve and as a reserve didn’t have the coverage that a full time officer would have had.

Today, in most cases, that would not happen. There would be law suits flying every which direction with laws and case law being dug up out of the Middle Ages.

Liability issues are in a constant state change. In today’s “It’s not my fault” attitude I would not want to take the chance. Line up the ducks first and then do the operation.

Gary D.

 

[Scubaguy62]

I'm in full agreement with you Gary in so far as that a rec diver has no place in any scenario that goes beyond the limits of his/her training and experience. You're also very correct in that not so long ago (I think it doesn't go as far back as 30 yrs, although I remember 30 yrs ago being more accountable for myself than 14 yr olds of today), people lived up to their mistakes a whole lot more. Today, they need to sign a release of liability statement before they do, and even then, they attempt not to.

There's lots about today that is better than what it was 20 or 30 yrs ago, and the justice system is no exception, but that's hardly the issue here, and we seem to be quite in agreement that no diver should step into doing anything for which they have not, in the absolute minimum, been adequately trained, and the training is current, despite of whether they're paid, and moreover, if they're made to indemnify the ones asking them to put themselves in peril.

 

[cldSCUBA]

To clear this up a bit. The dive team has training 2 times a month. There are 10 divers always on the team, they train with the rescue squad, using there boats, they have gear that has been purchased through grants and donations, like FFM, Com units, Dry Suits, ect... the issue is that there not members of the rescue squad. They are a dive team that is strictly used by the rescue squad. They do trainings with other dive teams from bigger cities on a regular basis. Why would they train with them if they knew there were doing this backward? Confused....

 

[Gary D.]

To clear this up a bit. The dive team has training 2 times a month. There are 10 divers always on the team, they train with the rescue squad, using there boats, they have gear that has been purchased through grants and donations, like FFM, Com units, Dry Suits, ect... the issue is that there not members of the rescue squad. They are a dive team that is strictly used by the rescue squad. They do trainings with other dive teams from bigger cities on a regular basis. Why would they train with them if they knew there were doing this backward? Confused....

It is starting to sound like they are a bit more squared away then we first thought. Lacking in training but that can be changed.

Who carries their insurance? Do they have their own or do the fall under the umbrella of some department?

Gary D.