Empress of Ireland Artifacts being sold

Discussion in 'Basic Scuba Discussions' started by ScubaScott, Oct 29, 2002.

  1. ScubaScott

    ScubaScott Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
    560
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    On the radio on the way into work this morning,I heard about a Quebec diver is going to the UN to appeal a right to sell 100+ artifacts he's (stripped/pilaged/had proper authority???)collected from the Empress of Ireland and apparently has a buyer - a museum in Florida - all worth more than a million bucks. I believe the story says he's going to the UN to appeal a decision that Canada is somehow preventing him from selling these artifacts........
    Does anyone have the REAL story, or at least more information?

    SS
     
  2. mddolson

    mddolson Scuba Instructor

    # of Dives:
    Location: Belleville,Ontario, Canada
    1,264
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    The Empress of Ireland, is a piece of Canadian maritime history.
    It has been declared a heritage sight.
    The sale of Canadian hertiage items is illegal, under Canadian law.
    She is not in international waters, and any artifacts recovered should be placed in a museum in Canada.
    I fail to see what the UN's jurisdiction is here.


    My 2 cents worth.

    MikeD
    :blfish:
     
  3. lakesdiver

    lakesdiver Barracuda

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    Isn't this the guy (don't remember his name) who set up a museum of the pieces he recovered from the "Empress"? Seems he wanted the province to buy the museum, and when they wouldn't, threatened to sell the stuff on the open market.
     
  4. Butch103

    Butch103 Scuba Instructor

    # of Dives:
    Location: Southeast Ontario (Marmora)
    1,470
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    He cannot sell something that doesn't belong to him.....Canadian law....But he is from Quebec and therefore feels he is above Canadian law....except of course when it is to his advantage.....:boom: :boom:
     
  5. ScubaScott

    ScubaScott Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
    560
    0
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    Yeah, they gave the guys name - it was Pierre something.........
    There wasn't much of a story and they didn't say what the items were for sale - thats why I was curious if anyone knew the story.
    Now my question is - how did he obtain these items? Since it has been declared a heritage site, and our gov't knows he has items "recovered" from this site, should he not be charged/fined/or made to speak english as a first language??

    SS
     
  6. Butch103

    Butch103 Scuba Instructor

    # of Dives:
    Location: Southeast Ontario (Marmora)
    1,470
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    You know damm well that the french in Canada are above the law. Just ask the crook running the country....I rather have a sex addict running our country any day.........Where else can you try to break up a country, without being charged with treason or being shot...............:boom: :boom:
     
  7. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Barracuda

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    This is not news. It was on 60 mins and W5 a while back. Parks Canada offered him $10,000 but then he got gready. They should just take it under the proceeds of crime laws. They just declared it a heritage site last year after it became public knowledge that a numbered american corporation was taking the wooden flooring off of the wreck. Its just like the Avro Arrow....Canadian heritage doomed to be forgotten. Its amazing how everyone knows about the Titanic but not about the Empress.
     
  8. mddolson

    mddolson Scuba Instructor

    # of Dives:
    Location: Belleville,Ontario, Canada
    1,264
    21
    38
    The Quebec residents as whole do not feel they are above the law.
    I know several Quebec residents, and other than wishing to preserve their right to speak French (a Right they won by the way at The Battle of the Plains of Abraham) most are law abiding Canadians.

    The argument that will be made (I presume) is that the artifacts were recovered long before the Empress of Ireland was declared a heritage sight, and therefore he has the right to ownership.

    The flaw in the argument, is that the wreck lies within our coastal waters and therfore falls under the Canada Steamship Act.

    In Canadian law "finders keepers" is not the rule, and for this reason most private collections are kept secret.
    All materials (floatsome and jetsome) recovered within Canadian waters must be reported to the Reciever of Wrecks, and notice subsequently published in 3 consecutive issues and the Canada Steamship Gassett, to allow the original owners (Canadian Pacific or the insurance company) to make claim, before salvage rights may be applied for.

    Under Canadian Law, historical artifacts are the property of the Crown (in the Province in which they lie).


    MikeD
    :blfish:
     
  9. Butch103

    Butch103 Scuba Instructor

    # of Dives:
    Location: Southeast Ontario (Marmora)
    1,470
    1
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    You are right...in a moment of frustration I made a broad, sweeping statement about all my fellow Quebecors (Yes I am a Quebec native).....still p****** me off to hear about anyone holding the artifacts hostage...............:boom: :boom:
     
  10. SSIdiver02

    SSIdiver02 Nassau Grouper

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    It seems to me that if that indeed is the law in Canada, shouldn't he have been arrested when he was found to have these items? Or at least have them confiscated?




    People who dont dive, dont know what it feels like to dive. To explore a territory that we physically should not be able to explore.
     
  11. ScubaScott

    ScubaScott Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
    560
    0
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    mddolson and Bubbleboy - Thanks for the info - I was wondering how this all came about. The radio was rather vague on the report. Really peeves me that this is even going on - the artifacts truly belong with the lost souls that went down with her - not in a museum anywhere. And maybe its not so much as the artifacts have been stripped - the fact that they are being sold for private profit.......ugh

    SS
     
  12. lakesdiver

    lakesdiver Barracuda

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    Seemed like 10K was a reasonable price. He had all that fun diving the Empress for years recovering all that stuff. Who knows how much he made from his museum. Be interesting to see how it turns out. I think the stuff should stay in Canada, though.
     
  13. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Barracuda

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    Hopefuly the Quebec Government will declare the Empress to be a grave site. Then that way anyone caught removing artifacts would be stealling from a grave site. This guy trying to sell the stuff clearly is not interested in the historical significance of the artifacts as illustrated by his willingness to sell.

    Rumour has it that some divers have complete skelletal remains from this site.....this is not a halloween related statement :ghost:
     
  14. ScubaScott

    ScubaScott Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
    560
    0
    0
  15. Scubaroo

    Scubaroo Great White

    4,356
    2
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    Note sure if it is the same person, but someone is selling a bunch of Empress of Ireland artifacts on eBay at the moment - I believe the seller is the diver who salvaged them, in what they are calling "The 1982 Empress of Ireland Salvage Expedition".

    Saw some Andrea Doria 2nd and 3rd class china for sale as well by another seller who appears to be a dealer, who previous auctions have included some *really* nice china from the Empress of Ireland wreck.
     
  16. ScubaScott

    ScubaScott Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
    560
    0
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    Blatenly stolen from the Canadian Press:

    A Quebec diver has finally recieved an export permit enabling him to sell some artifacts from Canada's deadliest marine disaster.

    Canadian collectors had until Dec. 19/02 to buy the collection and when none came forward , Philiipe Beaudry was granted the federal permit over the Christmas period to allow him to sell the 500 pieces in the United States. The objects, which include brass ornaments and fine china, were taken from the Empress of Ireland, which went down in 50 metres of water in teh St. Lawrence River near Rimouski, about 330 km NE of Quebec City, on May 29, 1914. More than 1,000 were killed.

    An American purchaser plans to add the items to his hard hat diving museum in Florida. Beaudry, who says he spent $250,000 during 30 years of dives to recover the object. The Pointe-au-Pere museum near Rimouski said it offered Beaudry $350,000. The American sale is reported to be worth 1.5 million USD."


    Wow - this really burns me.........

    SS
     
  17. Cherry

    Cherry Barracuda

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: Creston, BC,Canada
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    All I can say is Tabernac .....BTW the French lost at the plains of Abraham they won their rights to speak french in the morass of White hall in London. and like Governments every where they generally have more-asses in them than they need. and it appears 1755 was no different than today
     

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