Equipment Trends: The BCD

[danvolker]

regrettably Dan, they aren't selling BP/W's in your old hometown either.... "those things are for 'tech divers' " is the constant cry.....

I guess the next time I visit, I'll need to bring my dive gear with me and Visit Great Lakes Divers
Maybe offer them a demo

 

[rhwestfall]

they closed doors years ago (well over a decade). There are very few shops still in business here....

 

[GrayL]

I have yet to see this occur where the Shop personnel are not "creating" this atmosphere.
If the guys in the shop don't dive bp/wings, there is almost no way they will discuss them in a positive light..
Moreover, if they don't dive them, there is almost no way they will know how to effectively SELL them

I have helped with Halcyon Demo days in a number of locations, and I believe pretty much every recreational diver--including every very new OW diver, that tried the bp/wing, loved the huge improvement in trim, and the drastically better kick and glide they achieved with the bp/wing.

Out of curiosity, where is your shop? Just wondering how hard a demo day would be in your area....

I don't feel comfortable disclosing my location online. What I dive really shouldn't matter when it comes to selling gear. It's my job to inform the customer about everything, and let them decide what they want. Not sway them to dive what I dive (though, I do mention my favorites most of the time).Most of us at the shop dive back-inflate BCDs, but we sell more jackets than back inflates. If you're a frequent diver, you're more likely to be attracted to enjoy a BP&W because it's more modular, but if you honestly don't care, then you're less likely to want a BP&W. I've found that for diving locally, BP&Ws are less comfortable than my Ranger because of the long walks to shore. The issue with jacket BCDs is that most people shop with their eyes, and don't get one that properly fits. If you properly fit someone into a jacket BCD, they'll be just as comfortable as a BP&W.

 

[danvolker]

they closed doors years ago (well over a decade). There are very few shops still in business here....

Sorry to hear that! I will say that the infrastructure on dive boats going to cool places in Lake Erie was poor [ terrible] back in the 70's and 80's when I knew and dove with those guys....

If I lived there now, I'd be using a map of cool shipwrecks, and trying to find boats that could be relied on to drop me on these...
But at the time I was there, you'd learn how to dive, and then be on your own to find a place to dive.....But...they really put out a hard core training program, which I did appreciate.

If you had a population...a group of Wreck divers in the Buffalo area, that had great access to cool wrecks....you would think that you'd get the same desire for "better toys" for your favorite sport...as in cycling, skiing, kayaking, etc....My Halcyon gear would show off nicely in wreck penetrations with my DIR buddies, in the Great Lakes wrecks.
I don't remember any real currents ever in Lake dives...only in dives on the Niagara River ( which would benefit greatly from our Palm Beach drift techniques and bp/wing / DIR gear

---------- Post added March 20th, 2015 at 05:04 PM ----------

I've found that for diving locally, BP&Ws are less comfortable than my Ranger because of the long walks to shore. The issue with jacket BCDs is that most people shop with their eyes, and don't get one that properly fits. If you properly fit someone into a jacket BCD, they'll be just as comfortable as a BP&W.

Not sure how this could be.....The Halcyon or Dive Rite style of BP/wing, has a very comfortable steel or aluminum back plate, that is far more effective in the even distribution of weights and forces than will be possible for a "fabric" backed jacket BC....Even with the plastic insert some have, this is narrow, and not well suited to weight distribution...I know a lot of cave divers that hike MILES with a bp/wing and doubles on their backs...I don't think they would like this in a jacket..

And the Harness on the Halcyon or Dive Rite styles, should be perfectly customized to the diver--you sell one to a customer, you fit them as if someone spent $100,000 making them their own perfectly fitting harness, and this will allow them to be dead flat horizontal in the water, perfectly trimmed, with no effort on their part. There should be no constant kicking to get flat--you should be able to almost take a nap, with no fin movement, and still be resting flat.

Now in fairness, I think the real "fit", is the fit and comfort "Under the Water"....the fit and comfort in the showroom, has gravity acting in the wrong directions, and critically important things like Buoyancy effects on the diver, and Inertia of the Tank underwater, are lost.

When you have a properly fitted bp/wing....while you are swimming underwater, every time you make a sudden movement, the tank has to move with you like it is actually a part of your back....and it can, because of the style of harness and backplate....This is very different than most Jacket BC's--where the diver moves forward, or turns, and the tank on their back wants to continue in the direction it had been heading before--and it DOES for a moment...so the diver feels the tank moving around on their back....It is not noticed so much by a new diver that has only has Jacket BC's to wear--but once they dive a bp/wing properly set up, the difference SCREAMS to them....And, then there is the "Kick and Glide" you get with the bp/wing, versus the "Kick and air brakes" of the Jacket BC I think some shops may like their divers in Jackets that are like "air brakes", as they keep the diver swimming harder, blowing through way more air than they should, and all of a sudden the shop owner has an "opportunity" to solve the problem with a 120 cu foot tank or larger, at 4 times the cost of the Al 80.
And, if you sell the diver a jacket first, you may get a second sale of a bp/wing in a year or two ( if the diver does not drop out of diving).
Sell them the bp/wing for their first OW class, you know this will be their bc for life....No 2nd BC sale....But, the thinking ought to be that the student diver can spend the money on the huge number of real things they will actually need. The Toy store effect never ends, if you keep the diver competent and excited.

 

[GrayL]

Sorry to hear that! I will say that the infrastructure on dive boats going to cool places in Lake Erie was poor [ terrible] back in the 70's and 80's when I knew and dove with those guys....

If I lived there now, I'd be using a map of cool shipwrecks, and trying to find boats that could be relied on to drop me on these...
But at the time I was there, you'd learn how to dive, and then be on your own to find a place to dive.....But...they really put out a hard core training program, which I did appreciate.

If you had a population...a group of Wreck divers in the Buffalo area, that had great access to cool wrecks....you would think that you'd get the same desire for "better toys" for your favorite sport...as in cycling, skiing, kayaking, etc....My Halcyon gear would show off nicely in wreck penetrations with my DIR buddies, in the Great Lakes wrecks.
I don't remember any real currents ever in Lake dives...only in dives on the Niagara River ( which would benefit greatly from our Palm Beach drift techniques and bp/wing / DIR gear

---------- Post added March 20th, 2015 at 05:04 PM ----------



Not sure how this could be.....The Halcyon or Dive Rite style of BP/wing, has a very comfortable steel or aluminum back plate, that is far more effective in the even distribution of weights and forces than will be possible for a "fabric" backed jacket BC....Even with the plastic insert some have, this is narrow, and not well suited to weight distribution...I know a lot of cave divers that hike MILES with a bp/wing and doubles on their backs...I don't think they would like this in a jacket..

And the Harness on the Halcyon or Dive Rite styles, should be perfectly customized to the diver--you sell one to a customer, you fit them as if someone spent $100,000 making them their own perfectly fitting harness, and this will allow them to be dead flat horizontal in the water, perfectly trimmed, with no effort on their part. There should be no constant kicking to get flat--you should be able to almost take a nap, with no fin movement, and still be resting flat.

Now in fairness, I think the real "fit", is the fit and comfort "Under the Water"....the fit and comfort in the showroom, has gravity acting in the wrong directions, and critically important things like Buoyancy effects on the diver, and Inertia of the Tank underwater, are lost.

When you have a properly fitted bp/wing....while you are swimming underwater, every time you make a sudden movement, the tank has to move with you like it is actually a part of your back....and it can, because of the style of harness and backplate....This is very different than most Jacket BC's--where the diver moves forward, or turns, and the tank on their back wants to continue in the direction it had been heading before--and it DOES for a moment...so the diver feels the tank moving around on their back....It is not noticed so much by a new diver that has only has Jacket BC's to wear--but once they dive a bp/wing properly set up, the difference SCREAMS to them....And, then there is the "Kick and Glide" you get with the bp/wing, versus the "Kick and air brakes" of the Jacket BC I think some shops may like their divers in Jackets that are like "air brakes", as they keep the diver swimming harder, blowing through way more air than they should, and all of a sudden the shop owner has an "opportunity" to solve the problem with a 120 cu foot tank or larger, at 4 times the cost of the Al 80.
And, if you sell the diver a jacket first, you may get a second sale of a bp/wing in a year or two ( if the diver does not drop out of diving).
Sell them the bp/wing for their first OW class, you know this will be their bc for life....No 2nd BC sale....But, the thinking ought to be that the student diver can spend the money on the huge number of real things they will actually need. The Toy store effect never ends, if you keep the diver competent and excited.

In my opinion, the BP&W debacle is similar to that of building your computer versus buying one off of the shelf. Sure, building a computer is cheaper and more personalized, but you still see the majority of the market not building their own computers. Many people just simply prefer jacket BCDs. They aren't misled by their LDS, they simply prefer having pockets, having a jacket style bladder, and how polished most BCDs are compared to BP&Ws. Just because you prefer one product does not make another inherently inferior. Dive shops do not stay alive by scamming people, they stay alive by providing good customer service. We don't sell people subpar gear in an attempt to make them come back and buy more. I don't understand how people on this forum see a backplate and wing as the ultimate solution to every diver's needs. It isn't. It has its flaws, just as every product does.

 

[danvolker]

In my opinion, the BP&W debacle is similar to that of building your computer versus buying one off of the shelf. Sure, building a computer is cheaper and more personalized, but you still see the majority of the market not building their own computers. Many people just simply prefer jacket BCDs. They aren't misled by their LDS, they simply prefer having pockets, having a jacket style bladder, and how polished most BCDs are compared to BP&Ws. Just because you prefer one product does not make another inherently inferior. Dive shops do not stay alive by scamming people, they stay alive by providing good customer service. We don't sell people subpar gear in an attempt to make them come back and buy more. I don't understand how people on this forum see a backplate and wing as the ultimate solution to every diver's needs. It isn't. It has its flaws, just as every product does.

We might agree that you could enjoy diving with almost any bc, of any design.....the issue is whether there are important differences in the experiences possible with different types....
There are plenty of people that will NOT say they experience any important difference if they drive a ford fiesta, a Cadilac, or a Lamborghini Galardo - to some people, each is just a car...each just gets you from point a, to point b...If this is how you see BC's, then you would see Jackets as the more practical choice, as there is less tinkering required. But if you appreciate performance....then a Halcyon DEMO is in order ( or any of about 5 other bp/wing brands that are also smoking hot compared to Jackets--for performance).

 

[drrich2]

And, if you sell the diver a jacket first, you may get a second sale of a bp/wing in a year or two ( if the diver does not drop out of diving).

This seems apt to be rare to me. Consider:

1.) A lot of shops selling jacket BCDs don't sell BP/W, yes? So, not only will they not make the BP/W sale to the few who proceed to 'upgrade' to one later, but those customers will buy elsewhere, exposing their customers to one or more competitors who, by offering BP/W, may seem superior.

2.) The % of customers buying jackets up front & shifting to BP/W later would have to be substantial to drive the business model. Nothing I've heard indicates this is the case.

I'm not saying it never happens, just that I don't think it's the driving force in shop practices for the bulk of jacket-vending LDS's in the U.S.

Richard.