Fatality Cabo San Lucas March 3

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Want me to speculate? I'd like honest answers on that too, but the people who were there have all surely been told not to go public. My best guess is that the three divers were all hit by CO intoxication and disability, one sinking unconscious, the other two barely able to save themselves. I may not be guessing correctly or accurately, but the scenario does fit.

That is certainly a possibility and a feasible consideration. However, it was mentioned in some article I read, the initial issue was a mask issue with the cousin. It is also possible that the DI surfaced with the cousin to fix the mask issue while the victim stayed at depth alone. She could have had any sort of issue, including the possibility of CO intoxication, or any other possibility such as narcosis, which caused her to become disoriented or even descended, remove her reg, or other complications.

I don't believe I've ever gotten an invoice or receipt for a tank fill in Mexico or a lot of other places. No, I definitely wouldn't look at the absence of an invoice/receipt as any kind of proof.

It's interesting that the name of the shop that keeps getting mentioned in the media reports keeps getting commented on by certain people defending the shop, and THEN other people comment on the comments. Look at the sequence of posts and it's obvious. Perhaps if they resisted berating the person who posted the article, the shop would stop getting tossed around in discussions. It sounds like they should be dealing instead with the source of the information - the media that is publishing the information about the shop.

Who is berating the person who posted the article? I went back and tried to find the source of naming Sunshine. In all I can find the only reason the Sunshine even came up is because the there was some sort of text message with their name in it. However it doesn't mention if the text was sent prior or after or any detail.

Being from the states I guess I follow our legal system of believing someone is innocent until proven guilty and that any reasonable doubt can be considered as reason for innocence. Unfortunately like many things, those who believe one way will believe no matter what, and those who believe the other will believe no matter what, and those seeking truth and answers will most likely never receive them because of the extreme of the two sides mentioned prior
 
That is certainly a possibility and a feasible consideration. However, it was mentioned in some article I read, the initial issue was a mask issue with the cousin. It is also possible that the DI surfaced with the cousin to fix the mask issue while the victim stayed at depth alone. She could have had any sort of issue, including the possibility of CO intoxication, or any other possibility such as narcosis, which caused her to become disoriented or even descended, remove her reg, or other complications.
Could be a combination of issues, and accidents are usually result of such. A CO hit can be pretty straightforward, but then if they separated over a mask issue before CO problems might have become evident, it could all add up.

I nag a lot about buddies or trios staying together, step by step of a dive - every one of them, none of this meet you at the bottom/top caca, and if two balked to fix a mask, the third should have stayed with them rather than descending alone for them to catch up. We are discussing a lot of unknowns really, but to address that possibility - yeah. So if she as a comfortable and experienced diver did indeed drop down alone while two balked to fix a mask, that'd be poor field position for all when CO starts hitting, hypothetically. Even if the CO levels were the same in all tanks, it could hit the deeper diver harder - altho there are more possibilities.
 
Testing for CO seems like an obvious and wise idea. But in this case, we keep reading that the survivors commented that the air tasted bad. It sounds as though this tragedy might have been prevented if the divers had taken a few breaths before jumping in, and called the dive on account of bad-tasting air. Maybe there was both CO and something with a bad taste, and CO testing would also have prevented the tragedy. But maybe tasting the air would also have made a difference. I always take three or four deep breaths from my reg before jumping in, just to make sure air is flowing.

Sticking with your buddy or buddies is one of the rules they drilled into me when I got certified, but it's a rule that seems more broken than followed. I admit to having descended ahead of others, generally because of rough surface conditions and my being prone to seasickness. Most often, though, when I descend alone, there are already other divers on the bottom.

I have also been left behind when others descended faster than I was able. On some of my very first dives, when I was still struggling with equalization, I had to stop briefly on the way down, take a few relaxed breaths, and resume. On one of those early dives, the DM and the entire group went down quickly and immediately entered a swim-through, and I was left to follow their bubbles from above until I could rejoin then at the exit of the swim-though, after making my way down.

I've also seen divers ignore their buddies and go off alone.

One time I was with an instructor on what was to have been one of the dives of an Advanced course (which, for entirely unrelated reasons, I never completed). She was a good 20 feet below me when I suddenly developed vertigo (I think due to unequal equalization). I had to wait a good minute or two for her to look up so I could signal that I was having trouble and was calling the dive.

This incident in Cabo is going to make me a lot more insistent that my buddy and I stay together. Unfortunately, I live and travel alone, so I'm never diving with anyone I've known before arriving on the boat, and some folks are more cavalier about buddying. Often, I am reduced to asking another buddy pair or trio if I can buddy with them, and their attitude is that I can hang with them if I like, but they seldom show any interest in adjusting their diving. Best case is I stick with the DM and there's usually a small group of us, and if the DM is good s/he keeps an eye on everyone, and sends divers up in pairs as people get low on air.
 
That is certainly a possibility and a feasible consideration. However, it was mentioned in some article I read, the initial issue was a mask issue with the cousin. It is also possible that the DI surfaced with the cousin to fix the mask issue while the victim stayed at depth alone. She could have had any sort of issue, including the possibility of CO intoxication, or any other possibility such as narcosis, which caused her to become disoriented or even descended, remove her reg, or other complications.

If two divers surface from a shallower depth and are in difficulty citing bad air, it is only logical to assume that a diver going deeper on air from the same supply would be in even worse shape. You don't need narcosis or some other explanation to figure out why she would be in worse shape than the other two divers. Yes, she should not have descended alone, but if all three had descended to the same depth together, they would all likely be dead IF they were breathing CO contaminated air.



Who is berating the person who posted the article? I went back and tried to find the source of naming Sunshine. In all I can find the only reason the Sunshine even came up is because the there was some sort of text message with their name in it. However it doesn't mention if the text was sent prior or after or any detail.

Mike, it really isn't as hard as you are making it out to be. In post #4 of this thread, right there on page 1 of 20, is a linked news story in which the deceased's husband named Sunshine as the shop that filled the tanks. That is the reason their name came up in this thread, not random texts, not wild guessing, not vindictive competitors. It came up because it was reported as such in one of the very first news stories linked on the thread, and it is still being discussed because nobody has given any conclusive evidence that they didn't actually fill the tanks. We have somebody posting here who is obviously related to the shop in question, and we have you, with apparently every one of your scuba board posts on this topic defending them. Both of you are vehement that Sunshine didn't fill the tanks, but neither of you are offering any evidence other than your assurance or your assumptions. In the end, it really doesn't matter to the discussion of this incident whether Sunshine filled the tanks or not, and by continuing to belabor the issue, you are only succeeding in keeping their name associated with the incident, even if they were not.

With a few notable exceptions, nobody on this board really cares in the end whether it was Sunshine or not. What we care about is learning something from a dive incident in which an experienced diver died and at least one other diver reportedly became ill. I understand and agree with your urge that people not rush to judge Sunshine...there is no proof they did anything wrong, just as there is no proof that they did not fill the tanks. The rumored shop closure and PADI suspensions may or may not have anything to do with this incident.

What I have learned from this thread so far (despite all the bickering back and forth between supporters of Sunshine and those they feel are rushing to judgment), is that I need to be more careful about not leaving my buddy too far away, especially at the beginning of the dive, because that is when I might begin to suffer from any number of issues, including but not limited to CO poisoning. I also got a good reminder that I ought to be testing every tank for CO. I got a good reminder that just because 1000s of other tanks have been filled without incident, an electric compressor can put CO in a tank without taking it in through intake contamination. I also learned that there are CO testers available for rent in case I don't dive often enough to justify buying my own.

For those reasons, I really disagree with your wish for this forum to be closed. I think you have come in here as somebody who never participated in this forum before, found a shop you happen to like potentially involved in an incident being discussed, and jumped to the conclusion that it is a bad idea to have a forum to discuss these incidents. I think if you would take a step back from your mission to defend the honor of Sunshine and evaluate what is being said here without taking it all as attacks against them, you would find there is alot that can be learned here, even if we never eventually get any real factual evidence to support or rule out various possible causes of the incident being discussed. We probably never will learn what really happened in this incident, but by discussing what might have happened, hopefully we can help other divers avoid such situations in the future.
 
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AggieDiver,

If you want to know the truth and find some detail, it does take some work and it is not simple. However lots of people take the easy route and just believe what they read without questioning or doing research on any of it. I do have a personal connection, and I made that evident from the start, and I did have a very good experience with Sunshine, specifically with safety, and wanted to share it. However what concerns me about the stories, and should make you cringe if you are a DM, DI, or Dive Shop, is that an accusation can be made against you without proof and it starts spreading and damages your reputation unfairly. Imagine for a second a diver on our boat had an incident and the family, who was thousands of miles away, named you because you were on the boat and your name was on the manifest next the diver with the incident. They state with a responsible buddy this incident would have never happen. You say I wasn't his dive buddy and didn't even know he was there, and you are asked to explicitly prove you weren't his dive buddy. How do you do that? Do you have pictures, because without pictures we assume you were his dive buddy and you were responsible. I would bet everything I own you would be saying if you have no proof that I was at fault how can you accuse me. When a forum and articles started writing down your name you would believe it was unfair and the "few" notable exceptions would feel like "everyone" I am sure. However from the outside looking in we tend to be a lot more subjective then when the focus is on us.

There has been a lot of different versions of this story, and there was one article that quoted one of the family as saying they received a text about the fills, but again there was a lot of ambiguity around that. You say the family said it was Sunshine so it must be so. I ask for why you would believe it was without proof. You say that the lack of evidence that it was not them indicates that it must have been. I sure hope you’re not assigned to a jury, because I am sure you would disagree with the instructions.

I have been accused on this thread of blaming someone (twice) for something that was never addressed to that person. You have now disagreed with me for wishing for this forum to be closed, which I haven't, and I am not even sure where you got that idea from. You are completely incorrect about me jumping to any conclusions about having forums to discuss incidents, and while it is true that I haven't posted, as I mentioned before, it was not for lack of trying, but every time I attempted to I received an error. I think these forums are great, and I agree with some comments that are made and disagree with others, either based on research or personal experience. In this case I do have actual experience that I shared. Sunshine has stated that they were not involved and I have asked and have been told they indeed have a inline CO testing system.

The issue that I have is not for those who will do the actual research and find this out for themselves, but for those who will glance over the thread and take the assumptions as fact. You can say I am defending their honor or vehement about certain things. I am only go by what I am told and have been stated unless there is empirical evidence to the contrary. I just disagree with anyone who assumes the lack of proof providing innocents makes someone guilty. I think lack of any proof should be taken as innocence until proof can show guilt.

Here is a slightly different version of the story, which talks about the mask issue, that they actually didn't notice something was wrong until the second time they surfaced, and that he didn't feel sick until 15 minutes into the dive. It just opens up a lot of questions to me of what actually happened and why.

Instructor of Calgarian who died while diving also felt sick - Calgary - CBC News

If there is anyone is learning anything from this tread that will add to their safety, as I have stated before, then this is a great thread for that reason alone. I am all for it staying open and don't know where you got the idea I wanted to close it and look forward to discussing further.
 
You have now disagreed with me for wishing for this forum to be closed, which I haven't, and I am not even sure where you got that idea from.
Well, you did - but you can change your mind I suppose...
If there was a way, I wish this forum of scuba board could be eliminated because diving was so safe it was rare to see any accidents.
I don't know that I'd claim accidents to be rare. It is a potentially dangerous sport we try to managed safely.

As to where the tanks were filled, like I said - love to see that cleared up, but we probably won't.
 
IF what was said about that dive shop is true and they are somewhat suspended in any way with PADI that does NOT mean it was specifically due to the bad air. Also, repeating over and over again about if this or if that does nothing without facts. It is obvious that bad air is involved but what kind of bad air is the question still unanswered. As was mentioned earlier, it sounds like it was NOT 100% CO to blame. Legal action has been taken and maybe we will get more definitive answers soon.
 
AggieDiver,

If you want to know the truth and find some detail, it does take some work and it is not simple. However lots of people take the easy route and just believe what they read without questioning or doing research on any of it. I do have a personal connection, and I made that evident from the start, and I did have a very good experience with Sunshine, specifically with safety, and wanted to share it. However what concerns me about the stories, and should make you cringe if you are a DM, DI, or Dive Shop, is that an accusation can be made against you without proof and it starts spreading and damages your reputation unfairly. Imagine for a second a diver on our boat had an incident and the family, who was thousands of miles away, named you because you were on the boat and your name was on the manifest next the diver with the incident. They state with a responsible buddy this incident would have never happen. You say I wasn't his dive buddy and didn't even know he was there, and you are asked to explicitly prove you weren't his dive buddy. How do you do that? Do you have pictures, because without pictures we assume you were his dive buddy and you were responsible. I would bet everything I own you would be saying if you have no proof that I was at fault how can you accuse me. When a forum and articles started writing down your name you would believe it was unfair and the "few" notable exceptions would feel like "everyone" I am sure. However from the outside looking in we tend to be a lot more subjective then when the focus is on us.

Mike, the only answer I have for that is that Sunshine can come in here at any time they want and explain their side of the story. I haven't accused them of anything and I haven't attacked them in any way on this thread or elsewhere. I have joined your call to resist the urge to judge them in at least one post already and I will do so again here. Your rant asking me to put myself in their position is wasted on me, because I already agree with your position. The reason I responded to your post was because you keep questioning why their name was brought up and how it got into the discussion here. So I posted (twice) to point out to you exactly where and why their name got into the discussion. That doesn't mean I believe they are at fault, it means I am capable of reading a post on a message board. There has been very little focus on here in blaming Sunshine, and I believe your continuing to try to defend them here is doing more harm than good. Again, they are welcome to come here and tell their side of the story or to release a statement through an attorney if they prefer...until then, all we have to go on is your statements that are second hand and we have no way of verifying them, and the statements of a supposed insider who claims a connection, but won't identify what that connection is. In my mind, all anonymous sources get the same weight (not much) until there is verifiable information to support one over the other.

You say the family said it was Sunshine so it must be so. I ask for why you would believe it was without proof. You say that the lack of evidence that it was not them indicates that it must have been. I sure hope you’re not assigned to a jury, because I am sure you would disagree with the instructions.

First, I never ever said it was Sunshine. I simply pointed your attention to the linked news story in which the deceased's husband said it was them. I did so because you repeatedly questioned why their name was brought into the discussion. Please show me anywhere where I said it must be them? What I said was that you claimed to be seaching for why they were named and I pointed out to you that the husband of the deceased stated they were the source of the air. I also pointed out that the husband at least has an obvious and stated connection to the case and a means by which he COULD know who filled the tanks. That doesn't mean he DOES know...but I can see a logical reason why he MIGHT know who filled the tanks. In your case, all you have given as background is the fact that you have dove in the past with Sunshine and believe them to be a good operation. That is your sole source of evidence and you want me to believe that your saying they didn't fill the tanks should trump what the husband says. Then we have another anonymous poster who claims some vague connection and has all these ways to know for sure what happened, but gives us no basis for why we should believe what they say other than "trust me". And I am supposed to accept that as fact and discount the one person who might have been in a position to know who has contradicted the statement? In the end, I have no idea who filled the tanks and I have never stated otherwise. What I did say is that your statements and that of an anonymous insider do not constitute proof of anything. What I believe is that none of us here have any way of KNOWing who filled the tanks...and that you continuing to bring up the issue of the shop doesn't help them. All it does is drive up the number of mentions of their name in this thread, raising it further and further up the google search popularity. I know you think you are helping them, but you aren't. We understand that you think they are a great shop and I have no reason at all to think otherwise at this point. I simply doubt you will be able to do anything beyond that from where you sit and with your somewhat tenuous connection to the case.

You have now disagreed with me for wishing for this forum to be closed, which I haven't, and I am not even sure where you got that idea from.

Don has it covered above, but here it is again in your own words:

If there was a way, I wish this forum of scuba board could be eliminated...




In this case I do have actual experience that I shared. Sunshine has stated that they were not involved and I have asked and have been told they indeed have a inline CO testing system.

That is the very first mention I have seen of them claiming to have an inline CO testing system. I have seen various claims that they have a maintenance log and may have done periodic testing as required, but I have never before seen the claim that they have an inline system. Do you have anything more than an "I was told" source for that? Maybe a name of who told you that or could your source send you a picture of it? It would sure clear up alot of speculation if that were true, but color me skeptical of that claim at this time.

The issue that I have is not for those who will do the actual research and find this out for themselves, but for those who will glance over the thread and take the assumptions as fact. You can say I am defending their honor or vehement about certain things. I am only go by what I am told and have been stated unless there is empirical evidence to the contrary. I just disagree with anyone who assumes the lack of proof providing innocents makes someone guilty. I think lack of any proof should be taken as innocence until proof can show guilt.

No disagreement here.

Here is a slightly different version of the story, which talks about the mask issue, that they actually didn't notice something was wrong until the second time they surfaced, and that he didn't feel sick until 15 minutes into the dive. It just opens up a lot of questions to me of what actually happened and why.

Instructor of Calgarian who died while diving also felt sick - Calgary - CBC News

If there is anyone is learning anything from this tread that will add to their safety, as I have stated before, then this is a great thread for that reason alone. I am all for it staying open and don't know where you got the idea I wanted to close it and look forward to discussing further.

Good info...that account of the account of the dive opens some other possibilities, but doesn't do anything to dissuade me from thinking CO is still a very reasonable possibility. Because of the CO absorbing into tissues during the dive and then being released as you ascend, it is actually reasonable to think that you might not notice it initially, but would if you ascended later in the dive. The diver who stayed deeper and got more of a CO load built up, would actually be more likely to die than the ones who spent more time shallower and less total time breathing CO at depth. Is it proof of anything? Nope. But it certainly doesn't dissuade me from the possibility that CO could have been the ultimate issue that caused the death.
 
To be fair to KC-Mike, I believe one of his comments has been misunderstood.

He said, "If there was a way, I wish this forum of scuba board could be eliminated..."

I think he meant that he wished we lived in a world where there was no need for an A & I forum. I don't think he was referring to this thread. I could be wrong, but that's how I understood it.
 
If that is how he meant it, then I apologize for misunderstanding. I thought he was trying to say it wasn't necessary because accidents were so rare.
 
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