Helping A Friend, A Ccr Diver, Do's And Dont's

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

After diving with a good friend, for the past year, both getting certified on SCR re-breather's in the past 6 month's, I found myself caught in a web, of bad decision making i think, and a accident waiting to happen. It is hard to go over ALL of the experience's, but i will list a few, to help me understand if it's just me being over cautious, or making the right decision to continue diving in a safe way.

Without going much into my dive buddies history , he has about 50 dives, been to
100' a hand full of time's., and is comfortable underwater, and has the CCR theory down. But I think is " Rolling the Dice " at this point.

For myself, everyone know's here ,, I sold my re-breather to another good friend, and went back to what i feel comfortable with, diving double's for now.

It started 6 month's ago, taking a SCR course only to learn little about re-breather's, dove the Dolphin, got certified, and converted it right over to CCR. He's been diving it now for about 4 month's and has probably 20-25 dives on it converted.

It is a Dolphin, converted to CCR. He is using one sensor, a oxy gage, which had a 2-3 year old sensor in it, but well wait later for that one. It has the Kiss Style manual valve on it, and your other basic mods to converting it over to CCR.

1. : As of today, 6 month's after the Conversion to CCR, just last month the one sensor he was using, went bad, only to find out, he bought the Oxy-gage off Ebay, and knew the sensor was a few year's old, but continued to use it , until it went bad, then he used a back up sensor. It is in a P connector , in the In-hale bag,that is the only form of monitoring his PPo2. As of today, i requested a min of two, to continue diving with me, also one that can monitor his loop gas as it change's with his profile.

2. : Using a Nitrox computer with no monitoring of the loop mix. He set's his Nitrox computer for the gas closest to the MOD for the dive. So say a 90' dive with a mix of 32% Nitrox , would be used in OC, he set's his computer for that, then follows it diving CCR. As of today, I requested a VR3 with a P connector that can monitor the loop mix, reason why, last week he did a dive for 52 min total dive time, to 90' , not sure if he bent his computer, not following any pre-dive plan, and got onto his Jet-Ski feeling really tired. I also suggested a set of $12 CCR table's, I even sent him the link.

3. : He bought a Jet-Ski, to dive off by him self, and is diving off the coast of FL, 5 mile's out + , off a Jet-ski, with no dive buddy, on a CCR unit, that he doesn't even have 25 dives on. Most charter boat's down here will not let a CCR dolphin on their boat, cause of insurance reason's we found out. You have to be certified for that application only, to which one you are diving. So to get around that, he dives off the Jet-Ski now. He has offered for me to join, I have a 25' cabin cruiser, and will not dive alone, or leave the boat in anything over 30' of water, with-out leaving diver's on the boat. I have done it once or twice, but i don't plan to dive that way ALL the time.

4.: He wants to take the converted Dolphin past rec limit's , say 200' + , I know some people do this , with this unit, but as of today, I told him I will not be doing that dive plan with him. He feels that he dove the unit to 130' , what's the difference of a extra 70' ? I feel he should first get much more experienced, then buy a unit that is designed for that application. I said tonight to him, I don't want to be a Guinea pig wondering if the unit will work at 200'+ , or will he !!

5. : He is a "self study" . He now wants to add Heliox into his re-breather, so his Nitrogen build-up is none, or little , for more "Safety" How would he monitor his loop mix then ? VR3 ? He doesn't want to get training for that gas, so to not mess with the hassle of the LDS, he mixes his own right now, and would be mixing his own Heliox, which really scares me.

6. : He also fills a PST steel 100 CF tank to 4500 PSI of Pure O2, then brings it on my boat, and as he dives his 13 CF , he then top's off using the Steel tank with whip. I was told pure 02 is very dangerous at that pressure, is that true?
I seen picture's of boat's having a O2 explosion, and I don't want it to be me!


7. : If planning to go past rec limit's, I plan on taking advanced Nitrox-Extended range, but no agency will let him take the class on a CCR Dolphin. So he want's to skip all that training. What do you recommend for diving past rec limit's both OC and CCR ?


There are many more detail's I could go into, and many more question's I have. After diving with my friend for the past year. I don't want to end our friendship over this, as I enjoy his company, he is a friend, we also play paint ball with the families, goto Bbq's , and so on. But I am concerned for his safety. For now I think the line has crossed for myself, and at this point I feel like I'm playing Russian roulette, is the way another friend had put it.

I don't want to continue diving, stressing out, wondering every time I turn around, is he OK, did he pass out, is the 1 sensor working, etc, etc, etc

It's 4 am, after loosing sleep all night over this, I hopefully can save my friend, before he either gets himself killed, or the both of us .

Ps, Thank god for spell check !

 

[Blox]

You're kidding, right?

 

[Prudent_Rabbit]

I hope he is kidding but after reading it again, I feel he is not.....mate sit and talk to your buddy

 

[do it easy]

i generally believe in letting people do what suits them, but your friend is well past the limits. you need to have a chat with your friend.

 

[Diver Dude]

End your diving relationship with him immediately and tell him why. If he has any brains (it doesn’t sound like it) he might start to ask himself what is wrong.
Look for other signs of strange behavior like driving down I- 95 northbound in the southbound lane at 105 mph…..he might be suicidal.

 

[BigJetDriver]

After diving with a good friend, for the past year, both getting certified on SCR re-breather's in the past 6 month's, I found myself caught in a web, of bad decision making i think, and a accident waiting to happen. It is hard to go over ALL of the experience's, but i will list a few, to help me understand if it's just me being over cautious, or making the right decision to continue diving in a safe way.

Without going much into my dive buddies history , he has about 50 dives, been to
100' a hand full of time's., and is comfortable underwater, and has the CCR theory down. But I think is " Rolling the Dice " at this point.

For myself, everyone know's here ,, I sold my re-breather to another good friend, and went back to what i feel comfortable with, diving double's for now.

It started 6 month's ago, taking a SCR course only to learn little about re-breather's, dove the Dolphin, got certified, and converted it right over to CCR. He's been diving it now for about 4 month's and has probably 20-25 dives on it converted.

It is a Dolphin, converted to CCR. He is using one sensor, a oxy gage, which had a 2-3 year old sensor in it, but well wait later for that one. It has the Kiss Style manual valve on it, and your other basic mods to converting it over to CCR.

1. : As of today, 6 month's after the Conversion to CCR, just last month the one sensor he was using, went bad, only to find out, he bought the Oxy-gage off Ebay, and knew the sensor was a few year's old, but continued to use it , until it went bad, then he used a back up sensor. It is in a P connector , in the In-hale bag,that is the only form of monitoring his PPo2. As of today, i requested a min of two, to continue diving with me, also one that can monitor his loop gas as it change's with his profile.

2. : Using a Nitrox computer with no monitoring of the loop mix. He set's his Nitrox computer for the gas closest to the MOD for the dive. So say a 90' dive with a mix of 32% Nitrox , would be used in OC, he set's his computer for that, then follows it diving CCR. As of today, I requested a VR3 with a P connector that can monitor the loop mix, reason why, last week he did a dive for 52 min total dive time, to 90' , not sure if he bent his computer, not following any pre-dive plan, and got onto his Jet-Ski feeling really tired. I also suggested a set of $12 CCR table's, I even sent him the link.

3. : He bought a Jet-Ski, to dive off by him self, and is diving off the coast of FL, 5 mile's out + , off a Jet-ski, with no dive buddy, on a CCR unit, that he doesn't even have 25 dives on. Most charter boat's down here will not let a CCR dolphin on their boat, cause of insurance reason's we found out. You have to be certified for that application only, to which one you are diving. So to get around that, he dives off the Jet-Ski now. He has offered for me to join, I have a 25' cabin cruiser, and will not dive alone, or leave the boat in anything over 30' of water, with-out leaving diver's on the boat. I have done it once or twice, but i don't plan to dive that way ALL the time.

4.: He wants to take the converted Dolphin past rec limit's , say 200' + , I know some people do this , with this unit, but as of today, I told him I will not be doing that dive plan with him. He feels that he dove the unit to 130' , what's the difference of a extra 70' ? I feel he should first get much more experienced, then buy a unit that is designed for that application. I said tonight to him, I don't want to be a Guinea pig wondering if the unit will work at 200'+ , or will he !!

5. : He is a "self study" . He now wants to add Heliox into his re-breather, so his Nitrogen build-up is none, or little , for more "Safety" How would he monitor his loop mix then ? VR3 ? He doesn't want to get training for that gas, so to not mess with the hassle of the LDS, he mixes his own right now, and would be mixing his own Heliox, which really scares me.

6. : He also fills a PST steel 100 CF tank to 4500 PSI of Pure O2, then brings it on my boat, and as he dives his 13 CF , he then top's off using the Steel tank with whip. I was told pure 02 is very dangerous at that pressure, is that true?
I seen picture's of boat's having a O2 explosion, and I don't want it to be me!


7. : If planning to go past rec limit's, I plan on taking advanced Nitrox-Extended range, but no agency will let him take the class on a CCR Dolphin. So he want's to skip all that training. What do you recommend for diving past rec limit's both OC and CCR ?


There are many more detail's I could go into, and many more question's I have. After diving with my friend for the past year. I don't want to end our friendship over this, as I enjoy his company, he is a friend, we also play paint ball with the families, goto Bbq's , and so on. But I am concerned for his safety. For now I think the line has crossed for myself, and at this point I feel like I'm playing Russian roulette, is the way another friend had put it.

I don't want to continue diving, stressing out, wondering every time I turn around, is he OK, did he pass out, is the 1 sensor working, etc, etc, etc

It's 4 am, after loosing sleep all night over this, I hopefully can save my friend, before he either gets himself killed, or the both of us .

Ps, Thank god for spell check !

FLTEK,

Based on the fact that you care about your friend, and yourself, and your boat, you and he have a LOT to talk about.

I will, if I may, take on some of these items out of order.

You don't say, for instance, what your friend is carrying for a bail-out system while he dives. Given the type of rig he is using, that could be survival-critical.

Ref Para (6): Oxygen under pressure must be respected at all times. There is a fine line between using proper care, and being stupidly anal-retentive. Most folks don't push O2 to that high a pressure in portable bottles, however.

In a very recent instance in the Red Sea, an oxygen fire in a student's rebreather caused a well-known RB instructor and the whole group to bail out when the boat burned to the water-line off-shore. If you get an O2 fire going and can't shut down the O2, you are NOT going to be able to put it out.

Now, as to your friend's practices in general, I know a lot of folks who dive the Draeger Dolphin in highly modified CCR form. NONE of them--let me repeat--NONE of them dive it with only ONE sensor, and NONE of them let their sensors get that stale. (Ref Para 1)

At least see if you can get your friend to visit www.rebreatherworld.com and talk to the folks there who mod the Draeger and dive it on helium. They will have some solid suggestions.

Ref Para 3: A well-known CCR diver in Italy died recently while doing a solo dive in shallow water near shore on a TEST dive on a unit that he had JUST modified. If he had been diving with a buddy to observe, he would still be here.

The upshot is that ALL of the things he wants to do are possible, just that the combination or order that he is doing them in is just about impossible to survive for long.

I firmly believe, as the God of The Sea, Tom Mount, has declared: "Once properly informed of the dangers, an adult should have the right to risk himself as he sees fit!"

He has the right to try it. You have the right to say: "Not on my boat!" In any case, you sound as if you care about your friend, so it would be worthwhile to see if you can get him to modify his procedures somewhat.

Good luck!

 

[caveseeker7]

Hey buddy, sorry to hear you have to go through this.
Not good, and I understand you're caught between a rock and hard place ... .

After diving with a good friend ...

Is he really that good of a friend?
Why would he place you and your dive buddy (himself when with you) into such potential danger?
A decent dive buddy wouldn't. A true friend would never do that.
Looks to me like you're more of a friend to him than the other way around ... .

... he ... has the CCR theory down. But I think is " Rolling the Dice " at this point.

"Rolling the Dice" is putting it mildly ... more like the Roulette the other friend mentioned ... with more than one bullet in the gun.

If he had the theory really down I doubt he would dive a CCR with a single sensor.
Besides, theory only goes so far ... skills must be on par. And neither will necessarily keep him (or you with him) alive if his equipment is as substandard as you say.

I also suggested a set of $12 CCR table's, I even sent him the link.

At that price you could always give him those for his next b-day or x-mas if makes it.

4.: He wants to take the converted Dolphin past rec limit's , say 200' + , I know some people do this , with this unit, but as of today, I told him I will not be doing that dive plan with him.

I wouldn't go there without good training, good skills and good equipment.
Most, if not all he lacks.

5. : He is a "self study" .

Obviously not a particular good or smart one. :bluthinki

... 4500 PSI of Pure O2 ... I was told pure 02 is very dangerous at that pressure, is that true?

It is, to say the least, volatile.

7. : If planning to go past rec limit's, I plan on taking advanced Nitrox-Extended range, but no agency will let him take the class on a CCR Dolphin. So he want's to skip all that training. What do you recommend for diving past rec limit's both OC and CCR ?

Option for him: Do it OC. With the rig he dives he'll need it, and probably sooner rather than later.

Option for you: Do the training as planned, find other dive buddies.

I don't want to continue diving, stressing out, wondering every time I turn around, is he OK, did he pass out, is the 1 sensor working, etc, etc, etc

It's 4 am, after loosing sleep all night over this, I hopefully can save my friend, before

If you're stressing out over this as much as you do before anything happened to that guy try imagine how devastated you'll be when something goes wrong when you in the water with him ... read the Key Largo thread. Are you willing to take the risks for him, blowing your deco? Or are going to hang on the line knowing and pondering that he's probably history?

Does he know just how stressed out you are over this?
If so he either changes his ways or he isn't half the friend you think he is.

... he is a friend, we also play paint ball with the families, go to Bbq's , and so on.

Families? You both got families?

Ask yourself a couple of simple questions: Who deserves my loyalty, my friendship, my support, my love?

Need some more?
Do I want to come home tonight? Do I want to see my kid(s) grow up?
Do I want my s/o to be without me, my kid(s) without a father?

Maybe ask him those questions, and his family, too.

The way he's going he might not be around for all that many more BBQs and games.
Might as well get accustomed to it and cut that megalomaniac loose.

 

[Henryville]

Even being fairly ignorant about rebreathers, I can read that and find a multitude of "no way" statements.

If not for your history I would have assumed this was a troll.

Step one is recognition - print your original post (okay, edit in a few places) and give it to your friend to read. Then ask him to let his wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, mother, or child read it. Then you might be in a position to help him get started doing something about it.

If he won't, at least get him to make sure his will is in order and other important papers are somewhere that people can find them.

If you're tempted to keep diving with him, you should let your loved ones read the post and weigh in. You would be nuts to dive with someone who is doing that stuff.

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Wow, i appreciate the support, and alot of great point's brought up. Thank you for sharing, and i will have a talk with him, and going to print this out as well to show him.
There are many more thing's I could add in, but the list would keep going.
I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. It put's me in the water very stressed out all the time, to many thing's became the norm, and at this point , when he called yesturday saying he was at 90' for 52 min , not knowing if he was in deco, but feeling really tired, not even knowing how to read his computer, or what to do if it did give him a ceiling, pushed me over the edge.

BigJet, he just bought a alum 30 CF for bail out for dives to 130' about 2 week's ago, before then he was slinging a 13 cf for depth's to 130' . He wasn't slinging anything for a while, he would use what ever was left in his diluent , and considered that as bail out. Thank's for your input , it is greatley appreciated !

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Caveseeker7 , do you have that link for the Key's thread? You bring up alot of point's, and i will print this out, to show at least my family, and give him a copy.

Henryville your right, if i was reading it, i would think it was a troll at first to. It is not easy to go onto a public form and post somthing like this with somone you dive with often, and are good friend's with. After the past 6 month's , I feel that it's at the point if i didn't get some clear answere's, I may keep following this perosn, and continue to make bad choice's along with him. The little i do know about rebreather's,, and the short time I dove one, there are certian basic rule's that you do follow.
I kinda new the answere's before starting this thread, but wasn't sure if i was being over cautious, or over reacting. But at this point, ALL my trust has been lost with this perosn, and his descion making, I feel it's really gotten SLOPPY, and if anything somthing was going to happen sooner then later.
This was a eye opener for me, and im glad to have the support from the form, people like Bigjet, Caveseeker7, Padiscubapro , and many more come to these form's with great experiance, so I take there suggestion's very serious.
It was only till yesturday where after his discussion over the phone, I had to get this off my chest, trying to prevent somthing from happening. Quote from BigJetDiver :
I firmly believe, as the God of The Sea, Tom Mount, has declared: "Once properly informed of the dangers, an adult should have the right to risk himself as he sees fit!"
That say's it all right there, only thing i can do at this point, is print this out, and see if it work's, if not,he'll be diving alone off his ski, from now on , thank you