Question HID lights

[Underwater Tourist]

I might be getting an HID can light (second hand), but still have a couple of questions about them, so hoping for some help:

1) Is it difficult to get an HID in SM config (cord length and lid)? As I understand they were mainly manufactured with the cord coming vertically from the lid, so I would have to find an HID with an EO connector and then buy the battery separately?
2) When looking around at something like LM 15-35W HID, I see two types of pictures a) with a nice cylindrical body b) with a body that has a chunky rectangular part at the back (see pics). So which one is it? Are they different models (newer vs older) or just incorrect pics on sellers websites?

3) I read that sometimes you can see tiny flickering in the light (because of the wire in the lightbulb). Is it something that gets super noticeable? Is it frequent?
4) LM sells extra bulbs at 275$, but does anyone know if they are reselling some generic light bulbs that I might be able to get somewhere else for much cheaper (like a car parts store) or is it a unique diving-specific bulb?
5) Besides requiring more care when handled, not having different power setting options, are there any other quirks worth noting?


_______


P.S. If anyone has an extra 35W HID light they might be willing to part with in April/May, let me know also

 

[rjack321]

I might be getting an HID can light (second hand), but still have a couple of questions about them, so hoping for some help:

1) Is it difficult to get an HID in SM config (cord length and lid)? As I understand they were mainly manufactured with the cord coming vertically from the lid, so I would have to find an HID with an EO connector and then buy the battery separately?
2) When looking around at something like LM 15-35W HID, I see two types of pictures a) with a nice cylindrical body b) with a body that has a chunky rectangular part at the back (see pics). So which one is it? Are they different models (newer vs older) or just incorrect pics on sellers websites?
View attachment 763132View attachment 763133
3) I read that sometimes you can see tiny flickering in the light (because of the wire in the lightbulb). Is it something that gets super noticeable? Is it frequent?
4) LM sells extra bulbs at 275$, but does anyone know if they are reselling some generic light bulbs that I might be able to get somewhere else for much cheaper (like a car parts store) or is it a unique diving-specific bulb?
5) Besides requiring more care when handled, not having different power setting options, are there any other quirks worth noting?


_______


P.S. If anyone has an extra 35W HID light they might be willing to part with in April/May, let me know also

Length is easy, the lid probably not nor worth trying to mess with, It's fine coming out the side anyway, completely never going to snag with the tank in the way

Ballasts came in different shapes and the delrin was machined differently at different times.

The flicking should be way too fast to notice, like a 60hz, comparable to your TV

LM is not making a huge profit at $275 a bulb, that's what they cost roughly

Do not use or turn an HID on out of the water. It will melt everything in range and ignite your car.

 

[tbone1004]

first thing, I would not recommend to anyone to actually purchase an HID. If you inherit a functioning one then fine, but I wouldn't invest in one or spend any real money on one. Some really prefer the beam patterns but with as cheap as the LED's have gotten it's not a good investment. Specific to sidemount, HID's are a PITA because the heads are so big so you have to be really good with the gargantuan light head. If you dive HID in sidemount make bloody well sure you can comfortably reach the switch on the battery lid because you don't have an option of a switch on the heads, in drygloves and thick undergarments this can be incredibly difficult. Also, when compared to the LM picture on the right for example, the UWLD total head size is about the same as the portion in front of the goodman. This is really nice in sidemount because it doesn't get in the way and since the switch is on the head you don't have to reach back at all to the canister.

1. You can dive with a cord coming out of the top of a battery but you can also convert them to 90* glands if you are properly motivated. The cost to do this is going to be ridiculous though. Buying a new canister with new battery is even more ridiculous but you can purchase them with E/O's and you can convert any existing HID head to an E/O. Cost to do it will be about $300 to convert a light from hardline to E/O. You can DIY if you're careful with a soldering iron, but E/O cords are not cheap.
2. depends on where they put the ballast and how they set it up, the one on the right is newer than the one on the left but it's a design choice, the technology is the same.
3. if it does it, it's noticeable, it's annoying, but you deal with it.
4. they are not diving specific bulbs but they are very high quality bulbs that originally came from the OR/Dentist lights if I recall correctly.
5. They shouldn't be turned on on land, they do not have adequate cooling in air. They also shouldn't be turned on for short periods of time or off for short periods of time. If you turn it on you should wait for it to warm all the way up and settle in and if you turn it off you should wait for it to cool all the way down before you turn it back on. Generally speaking you turn them on when you get in the water and don't turn them off until you are about to get out of the water and if you turn them on or off, leave them in that state for at least a minute before changing state.


For reference.
This light is comparable in total output to a 21w HID, it does it for about 2 hours and while the beam pattern isn't that similar to an HID, it's only $550....

Dive Rite LX20+ LED Handheld Primary Light

Same Great Light - New Lower Price! The Dive Rite LX20+, a compact handheld primary light, stands brightly in a class of its own.

www.divegearexpress.com

This one has more total output than a 35w HID, albeit at a fairly wide angle more useful for gopro video than anything, but it's to give a reference point.

Dive Rite HP50 Handheld Primary Light

Dive Rite’s HP50 system raises the bar for handheld dive lights.

www.divegearexpress.com

This has the same amount of output as a 6mo old 35w HID, and while it is not cheap, for sidemount diving it means you don't have to reach, and it's big brother the LD-40 has about 1.5x the amount of light and the new emitters have a wicked tight beam pattern. Still not a laser pointer like the HID's but it's a much more useful beam pattern. Also also, they have the heat controllers which are the best in the industry and you can put them on the same battery pack which is quite nice.

https://uwlightdude.com/product/ld-20-2000-lumen-primary-light/

 

[broncobowsher]

As mentioned above, and I will second...
If you have a HID and it works, go ahead and run it. But don't invest any real money into it. They were awesome lights 20 years ago, blew away any of the Halogen lights that were out there. But they have been surpassed in so many ways.

I had a couple of HIDs back in the day. It was a game if they would start. There was a warm up time. They were even fussy about what angle they ran at. If you turned one on, you better have some time as they really needed to be fully warmed up before turning off. Or there was a good chance they won't turn on the next time. I remember running one a few years back against a fairly mediocre LED, and the LED won in every department. In the end I gave them away to a friend and I bet they are tossed in the trash after the fire destroyed most of the stuff in his house (it was not a light that did it, tree branch took out the power line and left the power legs but pulled the neutral leg)

 

[Jimchris]

I have a collection of 21 & 35W hids, all are salvo or light monkey. All have been purchased 2nd hand ( never paid more than $350, and that was for one of the 35w with a new lithium battery). Only issue with any of them was one I needed to replace the bulb when the return wire broke, otherwise have all been very reliable. YMMV.

 

[happy-diver]

Wire

Schmire

For Sale - UWLD Sidemount Primary light. Newest model

Newest model UWLD with their largest battery (160WH). Works Great. About one year old. Comes with charger, handle, everything ready to go. $2400 light new, asking $1,850 Pickup in Gainesville/Cave country. Can ship for an additional $25

scubaboard.com

 

[Underwater Tourist]

first thing, I would not recommend to anyone to actually purchase an HID. If you inherit a functioning one then fine, but I wouldn't invest in one or spend any real money on one. Some really prefer the beam patterns but with as cheap as the LED's have gotten it's not a good investment. Specific to sidemount, HID's are a PITA because the heads are so big so you have to be really good with the gargantuan light head. If you dive HID in sidemount make bloody well sure you can comfortably reach the switch on the battery lid because you don't have an option of a switch on the heads, in drygloves and thick undergarments this can be incredibly difficult. Also, when compared to the LM picture on the right for example, the UWLD total head size is about the same as the portion in front of the goodman. This is really nice in sidemount because it doesn't get in the way and since the switch is on the head you don't have to reach back at all to the canister.

1. You can dive with a cord coming out of the top of a battery but you can also convert them to 90* glands if you are properly motivated. The cost to do this is going to be ridiculous though. Buying a new canister with new battery is even more ridiculous but you can purchase them with E/O's and you can convert any existing HID head to an E/O. Cost to do it will be about $300 to convert a light from hardline to E/O. You can DIY if you're careful with a soldering iron, but E/O cords are not cheap.
2. depends on where they put the ballast and how they set it up, the one on the right is newer than the one on the left but it's a design choice, the technology is the same.
3. if it does it, it's noticeable, it's annoying, but you deal with it.
4. they are not diving specific bulbs but they are very high quality bulbs that originally came from the OR/Dentist lights if I recall correctly.
5. They shouldn't be turned on on land, they do not have adequate cooling in air. They also shouldn't be turned on for short periods of time or off for short periods of time. If you turn it on you should wait for it to warm all the way up and settle in and if you turn it off you should wait for it to cool all the way down before you turn it back on. Generally speaking you turn them on when you get in the water and don't turn them off until you are about to get out of the water and if you turn them on or off, leave them in that state for at least a minute before changing state.


For reference.
This light is comparable in total output to a 21w HID, it does it for about 2 hours and while the beam pattern isn't that similar to an HID, it's only $550....

Dive Rite LX20+ LED Handheld Primary Light

Same Great Light - New Lower Price! The Dive Rite LX20+, a compact handheld primary light, stands brightly in a class of its own.

www.divegearexpress.com

This one has more total output than a 35w HID, albeit at a fairly wide angle more useful for gopro video than anything, but it's to give a reference point.

Dive Rite HP50 Handheld Primary Light

Dive Rite’s HP50 system raises the bar for handheld dive lights.

www.divegearexpress.com

This has the same amount of output as a 6mo old 35w HID, and while it is not cheap, for sidemount diving it means you don't have to reach, and it's big brother the LD-40 has about 1.5x the amount of light and the new emitters have a wicked tight beam pattern. Still not a laser pointer like the HID's but it's a much more useful beam pattern. Also also, they have the heat controllers which are the best in the industry and you can put them on the same battery pack which is quite nice.

https://uwlightdude.com/product/ld-20-2000-lumen-primary-light/

thank you for the details

so again, i am still debating about a hid, but my thinking was that instead of getting a cheap big blue that looses half its lumens after 10 seconds, I wanted to get a second-hand hid light with an eo cord and then convert it to a proper led down the road

like Jim mentioned, hids can be acquired for pretty cheap

 

[Whitrzac]

EO cords wear out. Especially when used in salt water.

IMO Buy a lx20/lx20+ its not something you'll ever outgrow. Its a great primary to start, and is a usefull backup as you progress to higher levels.

 

[tbone1004]

thank you for the details

so again, i am still debating about a hid, but my thinking was that instead of getting a cheap big blue that looses half its lumens after 10 seconds, I wanted to get a second-hand hid light with an eo cord and then convert it to a proper led down the road

like Jim mentioned, hids can be acquired for pretty cheap

E/O cords are really expensive to deal with and while the concept of being able to plug/unplug them to swap heads/batteries/heaters whatever is nifty it's not what I would deem practical. Assuming you find one with an E/O already for a couple hundred bucks you're likely going to have to get a new battery which is a minimum $150 affair and unless it is a fairly recent Light Monkey or Halcyon you will have to do the head conversion by yourself. Since the LED heads are about $1k, you're saving maybe $500 vs getting a brand new light and still have a 10yr old canister/head/cords etc. If you want to DIY the conversion then you can but it's not quite as easy as it may sound.

I own the best canister light on the market, the UWLD LD-40, technically I have two of them because I'm extremely lazy so I have a long cable for sidemount and a normal one for backmount. Those are without a doubt the best lights being made today from an engineering perspective and they are utterly incredible, they're insanely expensive at $2k, but they're incredible. To be completely honest though, if I'm not diving my primary cave sidemount rig, don't need a heated vest, or just am feeling lazy I will dive with an LX20+ that I have as backup primary lights, or when I'm teaching/doing short cave dives I'll often just use a backup light on an Oxycheq goodman sock.

I see you're based in Canada, so if you're diving locally then the UWLD primary light with the biggest battery and the heated vest controller should be the only light you're looking at. It will drive any of the vests on the market with more heat settings and at a higher heat output *at the start of the dive the LM is comparable to setting 4 and at the end of the dive about setting 3 where the UWLD heat is constant output. The vests are designed for an operating voltage of ~13.6v which is roughly alternator output/lead float voltage and the LM/Halcyon/etc have a max voltage of 12.6 with nominal of 11.1v for reference*. That all said, if you don't need to also run a heated vest I would really just get a LX20+. For $550 it really doesn't have any real competition that I've seen which is why I own 2.

 

[rjack321]

thank you for the details

so again, i am still debating about a hid, but my thinking was that instead of getting a cheap big blue that looses half its lumens after 10 seconds, I wanted to get a second-hand hid light with an eo cord and then convert it to a proper led down the road

like Jim mentioned, hids can be acquired for pretty cheap

Leave it as a hard wired cord and HID. For the last few years, HIDs have had the ballast in the head not on the head. So you can't just pop an LED head on many HID lights. Older models had the ballast on the hand. EO cords wear out and won't last more than a year maybe 2 in salt water. Especially because any wiggly intermittent EO cord fault is death for HID bulbs (LEDs don't mind)

Years from now when you want to convert to LED the only thing usable from this HID & canister purchase will be the actual canister. The battery will need refurbishment and you will want a whole new lighthead and lid. By then, you will be better served by replacing the whole thing with a new LED light. Convert the old HID canister into a suit heater with a fresh battery and lid.