High blood pressure meds

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The point is not whether my condition X is socially acceptable or not, the point is that the DM on the diveboat (or wherever) does not need to know I have condition X, he only needs to know whether I am cleared to dive.

Anything the dive op "needs" to know should be established before the contract is made. So, if you have anything you need to know about me, ask before you take my money.

What are the legal consequences of falsifying something like a PADI medical form; besides whatever may come up after an accident?
 
Wow, open heart surgery is definitely a check the box situation, but I do understand the arguments for both sides. I had two back surgeries 20+ years ago, automatically, I need the sign off from a doctor for classes or diving in the Cayman's. I have not had any major issues since the last surgery, but getting a general practitioner to sign off on a form may not always be that practical. My doc signs the form with only the knowledge that I had the surgeries, and that I tell him I feel fine. I am not going to get an MRI or CT scan to go diving, there is no reason. What is worse, my doctor does not even know how to swim, but he did call DAN before he signed the form.
At the same time, the boats I dive on know I have had back issues, and if the seas are really rough, I usually pass on the dive. At some point, common sense and knowing your own limitations need to factor into your decision making process. Therefore, I can fully understand RJP and Floats AM strong opinions for either side.
I do think whether you are diving or not, you should be getting a physical each year for your own health benefit. For me, I get the form signed and make a dozen copies so I don't have to worry about it.

Mike
 
What are the legal consequences of falsifying something like a PADI medical form; besides whatever may come up after an accident?
I have no idea. My point has been that if you can honestly answer NO to all the questions, there are no issues. If you have a YES, then just provide a doctor's signature and don't bother with the questions.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
 
Perhaps it comes back to the question - is a dive boat a water taxi or are they responsible for you and your safety on the boat and throughout the dive?

Depending on which side of the fence your looking at - I can see different views.

Did the guy with the Rambo scar on his chest perform his dive? Did you / the captain ban him from future dives? Or did lying on the medical form get him what he wanted - a dive on the boat?
 
Checking the "yes" box doesn't mean you can't dive. It simply means you need medical clearance to dive.

You apparently weren't standing at the counter when the woman said "If you check yes, you can't dive"

Had a student a few years ago who had all "NO"s checked off on his form. When he was suiting up for OW dive one it became very apparent that he lied on at least two of the questions...

When I asked him about it he told me his medical history was none of my business. I agreed, but assured him that his lying on the medical form WAS.

It's your call whether or not you teach anybody, and it's the diver's call whether or not they're truthful when answering the questions you have no right to ask.

The only checkbox the medical form needs says "I'm responsible for myself, mind your own business"

flots.
 
Had a student a few years ago who had all "NO"s checked off on his form. When he was suiting up for OW dive one it became very apparent that he lied on at least two of the questions...

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When I asked him about it he told me his medical history was none of my business. I agreed, but assured him that his lying on the medical form WAS.

So, if that student had answered "yes" to those two questions and gotten a Dr to sign off on his medical release, would you have taken him diving?
 
. . .
The bottom line is that there are medical risks for diving and a diver must meet medical standards to be allowed to dive. There are certain medical conditions that will put not only the diver at risk but everyone else in the group at risk. . . .

Not to pick on your post, since others have echoed the same sentiment, but my question again is why elevate "medical standards" above other standards that could similarly "put not only the diver at risk but everyone else in the group at risk"? RJP answered "all of those other things are fair game for discussion/questioning by buddies, instructors, dive ops, etc... but since they are not medical, they don't really belong on the medical form." But why is there a "Medical" form in the first place but not an "Other Things" form that could be just as pertinent? I suspect the only reason there is a Medical form and not an Other Things form is because medical is what immediately occurs to insurance companies to ask. If insurance companies really understood the universe of risk factors in dive accidents and were confident that gathering information related to those factors from divers would help their bottom lines, they would probably have different forms. But they pick on Medical because that's what they know.

Is there some underlying assumption that the diver does not have the same understanding of his medical conditions and medications that he might have about his other, non-medical risk factors/vulnerabilities? Why ask the diver to check off the box about high blood pressure and/or provide a note from his doctor, when the diver may have researched the heck out of it, consulted with physicians and pharmacists, and come to his own conclusion, as a rational adult, that his risk to himself and everyone else is low. Maybe the diver is himself a physician or pharmacist?--there's no box to check saying "I decline to disclose, but I have professional medical qualifications" that the dive op will trust. None of us dive with a ZERO risk to ourselves and others--there are always risk factors, just perhaps not medical ones. I just don't understand what makes medical risk factors so much weightier than other risk factors, other than that medical risks are something insurance companies are comfortable with. But with medical risks elevated to weightier status in the risk universe than they may deserve, the dive op won't let me dive if I check the box saying I have athlete's foot?

The dive op is unlikely to do anything with your medical information that is going to benefit you. The one possible exception is if you have a medical emergency, the dive op could dig up your form in hope it contains something useful to medical personnel. But how likely are you to have a medical emergency, how likely is the dive op to do that, and how useful is the scant information that is typically on those forms going to be? "Hypertension [box checked] controlled by [unspecified] medication [box checked]." I think the diver should be trusted to disclose or not disclose the information that he judges should be disclosed or not disclosed, whether it's medical information or any other potential risk factor.

As far as "lying" on a medical form by checking the "no" box rather than writing in "I decline to disclose," I guess we would be getting into questions of contract law, and that varies by jurisdiction around the world. But I can't imagine any situation in the US where there is some legal penalty for lying on a dive op medical form. As has been discussed many times before, lying on a medical form will only become relevant if the diver sues the dive op, and, I would imagine, if there is some connection between your injury and the lie. Only then could your "lie" be used against you. Otherwise, it's completely irrelevant.
 
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Not to pick on your post, since others have echoed the same sentiment, but my question again is why elevate "medical standards" above other standards that could similarly "put not only the diver at risk but everyone else in the group at risk"? RJP answered "all of those other things are fair game for discussion/questioning by buddies, instructors, dive ops, etc... but since they are not medical, they don't really belong on the medical form." But why is there a "Medical" form in the first place but not an "Other Things" form that could be just as pertinent? I suspect the only reason there is a Medical form and not an Other Things form is because medical is what immediately occurs to insurance companies to ask. If insurance companies really understood the universe of risk factors in dive accidents and were confident that gathering information related to those factors from divers would help their bottom lines, they would probably have different forms. But they pick on Medical because that's what they know.

Is there some underlying assumption that the diver does not have the same understanding of his medical conditions and medications that he might have about his other, non-medical risk factors/vulnerabilities? Why ask the diver to check off the box about high blood pressure and/or provide a note from his doctor, when the diver may have researched the heck out of it, consulted with physicians and pharmacist, and come to his own conclusion, as a rational adult, that his risk to himself and everyone else is low. Maybe the diver is himself a physician or pharmacists?--there's no box to check saying "I decline to disclose, but I have professional medication qualifications" that the dive op will trust. None of us dive with a ZERO risk to ourselves and others--there are always risk factors, just perhaps not medical ones. I just don't understand what makes medical risk factors so much weightier than other risk factors, other than that medical risks are something insurance companies are comfortable with. But with medical risks elevated to weightier status in the risk universe than they may deserve, the dive op won't let me dive if I check the box saying I have athlete's foot?

The dive op is unlikely to do anything with your medical information that is going to benefit you. The one possible exception is if you have a medical emergency, the dive op could dig up your form in hope it contains something useful to medical personnel. But how likely are you to have a medical emergency, how likely is the dive op to do that, and how useful is the scant information that is typically on those forms going to be? "Hypertension [box checked] controlled by [unspecified] medication [box checked]." I think the diver should be trusted to disclose or not disclose the information that he judges should be disclosed or not disclosed, whether it's medical information or any other potential risk factor.

As far as "lying" on a medical form by checking the "no" box rather than writing in "I decline to disclose," I guess we would be getting into questions of contract law, and that varies by jurisdiction around the world. But I can't imagine any situation in the US where there is some legal penalty for lying on a dive op medical form. As has been discussed many times before, lying on a medical form will only become relevant if the diver sues the dive op, and, I would imagine, if there is some connection between your injury and the lie. Only then could your "lie" be used against you. Otherwise, it's completely irrelevant.
The point about the diver researching his/her underlying condition only applies to divers who have researched their condition. That would imply that every diver then has an awareness of their medical condition and has done their appropriate due diligence to look into if it is safe to dive with that condition.

While the medical form on an application for scuba may look like a standard health insurance form that is only because they are designed as general screening questionnaires. The questions are designed so that you can pick up a underlying medical conditions through a population. As a screening test you have set a certain level of sensitivity. That means you can set the sensitivity low and have general broad questions but that runs the risk of missing medical conditions. Or, you set the sensitivity high and have multiple specific questions but that means you will identify more conditions that you need. So some minor conditions will be identified as well as the major ones.

You would be surprised at what some people think about certain medical conditions. One reason why I always review a medical questionnaire with the patient is that a few incorrectly list conditions or medications. They not infrequently list the surgery section as no previous surgeries. Then on exam they have clearly had cosmetic surgery. "Oh, I didn't think that was surgery." So to pick up some conditions or procedures the questionnaires tend to have multiple questions and redundant questions to minimize inadvertent but incorrect responses. For health insurance companies they also want to know every little detail about the person applying for coverage so they too would have a very extensive questionnaire. I would suspect that since diving forms are not submitted to your insurance carrier then it is only coincidental that they appear similar.

As for HIPPA, it only pertains to outside agencies asking for patient information. So if a doctor's office, hospital, or insurance company asks for medical records I must have the patient's authorization to disclose any information. If you are filling out a questionnaire and check "yes" on a box then it is implied you have already given consent for information. But there is very little information to be gained from "Yes, I take blood pressure medication." I still have hard time understanding why that is privileged information to be closely guarded like a state secret.
 
But there is very little information to be gained from "Yes, I take blood pressure medication." I still have hard time understanding why that is privileged information to be closely guarded like a state secret.

LOL. Stretching things a bit, aren't you?
Because the information is intrusive and not necessary if I show a signature that says I'm cleared to dive.
 
But there is very little information to be gained from "Yes, I take blood pressure medication." I still have hard time understanding why that is privileged information to be closely guarded like a state secret.

It's not that it's secret information, it's that the information is used to deny diving, which is completely opposite of what it should be.

Who has more of a chance of dropping dead on a dive?


  • Someone who has perfectly controlled mild hypertension, who's in good shape and has taken the medication for decades or
  • Someone who thinks that medicine is just a scam, hasn't seen a doc in 30 years and is beet red with veins bugging out?

The first guy doesn't get to dive if he checks the box, while the second guy can legitimately not check any boxes because he's never been diagnosed.

If you've been diagnosed and treated, there's a distinct advantage to lying on the form (you get to dive). If you've never seen a doctor and are only alive because of divine intervention, you can legitimately check all the "no" boxes.

Now if they change the form to say "Do you have uncontrolled or poorly controlled hypertension?" I could legitimately check the "no" box.

flots.
 

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