How low with spare air

[dumpsterDiver]

Are you saying you sprint to the surface the second you feel the slightest change in work of breathing? You don't look for problems/solutions first?

If it gets hard to breath, I am pretty much bailing on the dive. What the hell are you gonna fix, at depth, on a recreational, openwater dive? The most important thing is to just get the ascent started. That is NOT a sprint. As described, I would do a few kicks, begin to ride the buoyancy and RELAX!

I had a scuba failure while diving a little over a year ago and captured it on video. I developed a very serious leak and I waited for my buddy to shut down the problem tank--- I didn't know if it was the primary or the pony bottle at the time. I didn't shoot for the surface because I had my young teenage son with me to deal with and there was no reason, since I had a 13 cu-ft tank at 80 feet and knew that I still had enough air to make an easy ascent.

 

[DevonDiver]

Depending on experience, comfort and control, the first 6 steps take... maybe 5 seconds.

For you. For me too. Also for DumpsterDiver...and all of the other highly experienced divers/instructors contributing. Not so for novice divers.

I try not to give advice based on how I would perform... it'd be unrealistic for most.

Take, for example, the 'simple' step of checking the gauge to confirm the problem. Try it with a novice...time it... see how much 'fumble' occurs. Not from a pre-briefed, demonstrated, staged, anticipated, simulation... but at random, under some stress, with no warning or expectation.

Add competing demands for attention (i.e. all the other numbered points) and expect the novice diver to not have a clear and defined approach to their emergency management (i.e. 'by the numbers'). See how they over-load, get confused, take more time...

It could take them 5 seconds alone, just to access and read a gauge (that's assuming it's not dangling behind them or stuffed in a pocket...)

Heck, I've seen divers just staring at an empty gauge for 5 seconds in disbelief... and those were 'experienced' divers on technical diving courses...

1) Comprehend that you actually have a problem.
WTF?...

Yep..absolutely. You never saw than non-plussed, dumb-founded vacancy occur when a diver was hit with an unexpected problem?

Or are you making assumptions that divers respond in reality, the way they do when you provide them with the OOA experience on OW class... after a generous briefing, masterful demonstration and lots of "OK" signals?

I believe DumpsterDiver is speaking of his experience whilst diving solo negating the need for the last few steps..... except for number 9.

Fair point. Because we wouldn't advocate a policy of just abandoning the buddy without an attempt to signal or even a second-glance, would we?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

You don't check the gauge if it becomes hard to breath. You switch to the pony and start the ascent! What the hell good is a gage reading anyway? Getting hard to breath is a very good indication that you are low on air... more reliable than a pressure gage reading which may or may not be faulty.... Of course, you might say that the diver could have had the tank valve just barely cracked and he would see a fluctuating needle when breathing, but... it is probably safer to just head for the surface with your pony and go back to the main tank as you reach shallow water... as I roginally described..

 

[supergaijin]

Perhaps I'm confused. This is a(nother) thread about slinging a pony. Vacation divers don't have them... except for the incredibly small percentage of users of SB.

I honestly expect a diver not to need 5 seconds searching for a gauge. Divers should have their gauges clipped where they can see them at a glance. Tourists under my care are evaluated underwater- some cannot be allowed to dive independently regardless of what certification they show.

My own experience of running OOA had most of what DevonDiver described:
Comprehension, confirmation (via gauge), weigh options, select and execute best option. I fully expect all divers (including tourists) to do the same with varying success.

The ease/success of being able to 'execute the best option' is based on their experience/comfort level.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Where's the Like icon for this post, I can't find it? Consider the post liked

Off-topic a bit, but since you asked, I'll provide an answer.

Whenever you don't see a "Like" icon on a post it's because this person was posting at the same time you were, and hit the Post button before you did. If you don't see the Like | Share link, Refresh your screen ... then you'll see it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

For you. For me too. Also for DumpsterDiver...and all of the other highly experienced divers/instructors contributing. Not so for novice divers.

This is the advanced scuba forum, not basic. Divers reading this are either advanced or want to dig in and become advanced.So it is tricky, you want to present advanced options, but they may or may not have the experience to utilize them.

That said, there seem to be 2 methods to handle the crisis, both work but have different hardware requirements.

1) Carry lots of "spare air" (big pony, the poor OP used a touchy term, poor guy) so you can methodically go through the list like a pilot on an aircraft is trained to. That is IF the poor SOB can remember them.

2) Take advantage of the recreational profile and head for the surfaces in a reaction (one that should be drilled on a regular basis so it is 2nd nature) using a lot less air. No decision making!

There is nothing wrong with your list, it is a good method to solve general problems, on top and on the bottom. You are absolutely correct, it could take 5 minutes for a narced novice diver to run through it. The problem is time when it is a gas related issue. The analogy is a pilot flying over the great plains. If you have a problem you put the plane down, chances are you will live. You don't need much time. This is the lot of the recreational diver following no-overhead. A pilot flying over open water, mountain ranges or developed areas needs a lot of altitude to be have the time to find a precise solution or he dies (along with others) because he cannot just react. If this is your dive style (deep / overhead / etc...), then you also need the time to solve problems because you can't just ascend.

 

[victorzamora]

so you can methodically go through the list like a pilot on an aircraft is trained to. That is IF the poor SOB can remember them.

I don't know about you, but literally every class I've taken has drilled Stop, Think, React. This isn't just scuba, either. My knee-jerk reaction when something happens is to Stop, Think, React. Simply reacting could end poorly if proper thought wasn't used. It may not every time, but it will eventually. If the pilot you're talking about flying over the great planes pitched the nose down and ZOOMED towards the ground every time something mildly ungood happened, it would be just as bad. Ascending automatically no matter could lead to the same thing as a pilot exceeding Vne.

Carrying a pony is a false safety blanket. It might make you feel better, but if something goes wrong and you don't have the proper training (note: I didn't say "cert") then it does you more harm than good.

DumpsterDiver: I remember your incident where your son helped you. Your reaction was NOT to instantly surface. You stopped, thought, and reacted. It doesn't take an eternity to do that, but it should be longer than to just immediately swim up.

 

[DevonDiver]

There is nothing wrong with your list, it is a good method to solve general problems, on top and on the bottom.

I'm still not decided whether the list is an 'ideal', or whether it is simply the typical, natural and instinctive route followed by most divers. It is for me - but I can't say for sure whether my responses are indicative of the majority... It's just what I noticed that I do... and what others do (in all, or in part...and in varied sequences).

 

[redacted]

I'm still not decided whether the list is an 'ideal', or whether it is simply the typical, natural and instinctive route followed by most divers. It is for me - but I can't say for sure whether my responses are indicative of the majority... It's just what I noticed that I do... and what others do (in all, or in part...and in varied sequences).

That list pretty much covers what I do when I have a minor or routine problem. Like when I hear bubbles behind me or have trouble unclipping a snap link. But when the problem is serious, like an OOA, the response should be more ingrained. I have never experience a true OOA but I have had my Mk7 stop delivering adequate breathing gas to my primary which is somewhat similar. First there is warning so it should rarely happen as a complete surprise. With the Mk7, it involves a quick switch to my alternate. In a true OOA, I have no doubt my immediate reaction will be the initiation of an ascent, or move to buddy if I know we are close. Other options can be considered en-route including buddy notification and other sources of gas. Leaving a buddy behind in an OOA situation should be no big deal. A good buddy will probably see what is going on and try to help. An unaware buddy will get to practice the buddy separation procedures for which we have all been trained. The initial decision time is probably no more than 10 seconds.

 

[herbdb]

The Pilot analogy is actually not bad. These are the general steps to follow in an emergency taught by the Air Force.

1 Maintain Control

2 Analyze the Situation

3 Take the Proper Action

How long this takes really depends a lot on training, drills and individual reaction to stress. Step three varies with situation and equipment. A pony bottle gives you more time and options.