i tried to fly out today and i ended up being bent

[Thalassamania]

I seem to recall a matched subject study of US Military Personnel traffic fatalities in Germany and the US, significantly fewer in Germany.

 

[sdiver68]

Back to diving: We are responsible for ourselves. Its more like driving on an empty country road where there is little threat from other drivers or radar wielding cops. We can drive as fast as we want and need to decide how hard to push it. My original point was we have to decide on the safety margin depending on the conditions. In bad conditions, that margin needs to be a lot bigger than in good conditions. A fixed safety margin (-5MPH in my example or +8MPH in your) are both stupid unless you look at the specific conditions.

The 8mph was an example based on the science of a particular situation, not an absolute. Sorry if I was unclear. I agree with everything above.

 

[Thalassamania]

I'm sorry, but I see about zero similarity between riding a bike fast down a country road and diving. On the bike much of your survival may hinge on your reflexes and your situational awareness, while diving, which may also rely on SA has nothing what-so-ever to do with reflexes but rather with careful, thoughtful, deliberate problem solving.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

2008 German Autobahn (no speed limit for most cars) deaths per billion vehicle kilometers = 2.2
2008 United States Interstates, same statistic = 4.5

International Transport Forum

Sorry I broke my promise but others apparently want to discuss. Now what is it you were saying?

Just to satisfy those who think we are totally off topic, I will toss in another factor when comparing driving in Germany and the US. I am using a gross generalization, but I believe it to be true based on multiple trips to Germany and a few weeks driving there. Sorry if I insult anyone.

German drivers in general are like DIR folks. They have very rigid rules, high standards and take their driving very, very seriously. Getting a drivers license is much more of an task than the US where you barely need a pulse. No one yaking on a cell, putting on makeup while driving or any of the other crazy stuff I see on the freeway in LA. Mentally they are better prepared to cope with the increased risk of driving 80MPH on the autobahn.

Many US divers on the other hand are like tourist divers. The training is minimal, we tend to bend the rules, are easily distracted and take a drivers license as a God given right. We tend to do stupid things. Not all US drivers are idiots, but it only takes a few to make the road dangerous.

 

[kimbalabala]

I didn't read ALL 234 posts on this thread, but I read a whole lot of them - and not in order - and sort of got lost in the motorcycle and Germany comparisons. However, somebody asked what this guy's certification level was so I went back to the beginning to find it. In post #18 he said:

"I plan getting certified advanceds with nitrox so that should help plus taking more of a roll then just letting a dive master run the show if I don't want to push it I could have just told them I wanted to acsend early before my no decode got close to caution it didn't pass it."

I took this to mean that he was OW certified and planned to get AOW certified as well as Nitrox certified. I guess you can still do the deeper dives as long as you have a guide with you - but with OW certification he could only go to 60 feet without a guide, right? We had the opportunity to do the deeper dives in the Keys - with a guide - when we were just OW certified, but I simply was not comfortable depending on someone else to be the repository of all the knowledge that really *I* should have for my own safety. You'd have to feel you could trust that guide implicitly (and no offense, but I haven't seen any guide that I would entrust my - or my buddy's - life to).

 

[daniel1948]

PADI says that 60 fsw is the maximum depth for OW. But I've never been to a resort that paid any attention to that limit. In fact, at more than one I was STRONGLY encouraged to go deeper. Technically, an instructor can take you deeper, and call it instruction. I don't think a DM is supposed to. In Cozumel I was told "you'll be fine" when I balked at the 85-fsw dive plan. And this was my first dive trip after getting certified (OW). On the Nekton Pilot, none of the other divers was willing to accept a 60-fsw limit (which I imposed on myself) so I dove every dive with a crew member. They were great about it. But the captain kept telling me that I was a good enough diver to dive with the other guests, all of whom were going deeper.

So even though PADI says that 60 fsw is the OW limit, I've met nobody who pays any attention to that. And there's no law (except Darwin's) against diving beyond your certification level. At last where I've dived.

I took 3 of the 5 dives towards an AOW certification. (Didn't finish, because the trip was cut short.) I really do not believe that those lessons, plus two more, would have made me a good enough diver to make the difference between being safe at 60 fsw and being safe at 130 fsw. I don't feel the word "advanced" is justified for the PADI AOW certification. (I'm not familiar with any other agency's classes.)

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

Stop me if I am wrong since I do not keep up with PADI but 60 fsw is a recomedation and not a requirement. It is a good recommedation if you do not have your gas consumption and buoyancy sorted out. You need those and not a AOW card to safely go past 60 fsw.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

I don't feel the word "advanced" is justified for the PADI AOW certification. (I'm not familiar with any other agency's classes.)

I think where it gets confused is that PADI has OW (i.e. beginner) and Advanced OW (i.e. advanced beginner).

I do think their use of the term "advanced" might be improved upon (say by having OW-1 and OW-2). It seems very easy to confuse "Advanced OW diver" and "Advanced diver."

 

[daniel1948]

Stop me if I am wrong since I do not keep up with PADI but 60 fsw is a recomedation and not a requirement. It is a good recommedation if you do not have your gas consumption and buoyancy sorted out. You need those and not a AOW card to safely go past 60 fsw.

PADI has no legal power to enforce any "requirements." They "certify" those who have passed their OW course to dive to 60 fsw.

I think we are in agreement that AOW is irrelevant with regard to the safety of going below 60 fsw. Many experienced OW divers can safely go to 130 fsw, and some AOW divers should not go below 60. But with those minimal 5 dives of the AOW course, some of which have no bearing on depth and only one of which goes to 100 fsw, and without regard to level of experience, PADI "certifies" divers to go to 130 fsw.

How wrong is it to take a diver to 100 feet once, plus four skills dives at much shallower depths, and then certify him or her to dive to 130 fsw, when the diver may have logged only 15 or 20 lifetime dives?

 

[lagonia]

I own and operate an air charter operation based on the island of Utila in The Bay Islands of Honduras. Since Utila is a popular dive destination and since most of our passengers are divers we limit our altitude to 1,500 feet when flying. We have flown literally thousands of passengers and have never had any reports of any problems from our passengers. I recommend divers know who they fly with and make sure the pilot knows you are divers and have dived recently.