Iceland and Japan share the same Futon

[neilstewart]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...d=128556&md5=ebbb16d692ae42730b1f669a8860e09f

This paper also shows upward trend in large baleen species.

 

[ams511]

In their never-ending, and often illegal quest to exterminate the whales Iceland and Japan get cozy by sharing the same futon. :shakehead


http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Icelandic-firm-to-sell-whale-meat/2006/11/07/1162661652467.html

I liked the term "Eco-friendly whale meat" that is a contridiction if ever I heard one.

 

[neilstewart]

I wish to make something clear, I do wish that whaling would cease worldwide. I think that if a total ban were in place for 10 to 20 years then people would learn to live without whale product and come the end of the moratorium there would not be a market left for whale product. It is the biased bashing of countries like Japan that I am opposed to without balanced argument. It seems to me that in many instances it is done on a whim based on a single sensationalised news report.

 

[ams511]

There are some seriously High Horses around this thread I think. Read the BBC interview in full, virtually no-one in Japan eats whale. And talking of horses more people eat that, and where are they getting all this horse from, USA, 300,000 animals from Texas alone last year. Just think of poor "My little pony" and the abundance of pre-teen girls you could have in floods of tears with that little soundbite.

When someone posts references to proper scientific journal aticles evidencing their hypothesising I can start to take them seriously, please someone give us just one FACT not newspaper sesationalisation or pressure group propaganda.

I would sincerely like to know the scinetific consensus of fin whale population and what impact the removal of animals would be on the longterm viability of the population.

A few points:

First, the population of Japan is about 125 million people, the amount of whales harvested for dubious "scientific" reasons is about 400. Given the law of supply and demand I would think that whale meat is very expensive there, hence not eaten by typical Japanese. If more whales are harvested then the price would decline allowing it to be more affordable, which would increase demand.

Second, Horses are not endangered species the last I checked. Nor are they indigenous to North America. The wild horses here were brought by the Spanish when they first arrived. So we can sell them all and not affect the environment. If fact we would be doing it a service.

Third, If whaling is traditional to the Japanese then let them hunt them in a traditional way (longboats and hand thrown spears) in their own waters. Not using modern technology and hunting in international waters which belong to us all.

Finally, Biology is not as exact of a science as chemistry or physics. The best scientists can do is come up with a range of estimates of what the whale population was before before being hunted using modern methods. However, we do know from experience that fisheries can collapse from overharvesting, especially species like whales and sharks that have limited abilities to reproduce. What is wrong with being conservative? Japan and Iceland are developed countries, their people are not starving. Do they really need the whales to feed their people? I might feel differently if Ethiopia wanted to harvest whales but certainly not two developed countries.

 

[neilstewart]

You will read in places that in one small education area, whale meat was being tested as a school meal for children and that it is sold as dog food. Does this sound like a high priced luxury item that the Japanese rich are climbing over themselves to find and snap up, of course not. Demand is so small that they cannot give it away in Japan.

I did not make the point about horse meat to compare populations of species. It was mearly made to highlight that an unresearched soundbite about and emotional topic can have huge impact on peoples opinion.

I think that whales are nomadic so that chuck spears at them in your own waters is a bit pathetic don't you think? Hstorically, most whaling occured just off shore during breeding season, it was not like the heroic epic Herman Melvile would have you believe. Incidently, during the height of the whaling industry conservative estimates that the US caught in excess of 30,000 animals per year.

Let's just say "Science is not an exact Sciene", although articles do require some level of confidence with the results usually 95%+. At least that is something, how much confidence do you have in newsmen? internet? and lobby groups? I know where I would prefer to go for my information.

I agree with you that fisheries can become fragile from overfishing but where is your evidence that taking these whales is overfishing? Even though we do not like it, taking these whales is at the moment legal. The scientific evidence suggest that numbers of these species are increasing and so therefore sustainable.

The purpose of continuing whaling for Japan is not to feed its people but to prop up an industry in a tiny area of Japan that has little other. I am sure that the government would like nothing more than to find them some more internationally palatable employment. All westernised countries have subsidised industry which have huge impact on global free markets, some which impact greatly on the ability of sub saharan Africa to sell its produce so contribute to its poverty.

I just want reasoned balanced argument. No-ones hands are clean in this debate so why is it acceptable to just spout out drivel like "Iceland and Japan want to ilegally exterminate whales" It is absolute nonsense and should be shown as such.

Wielding the sword of justice around this forum for self righteous gratification is in my opinion, a bit two faced.

 

[victor]

There is no commercial justification for hunting whales.

Neither Iceland nor Japan has put forward any better argument than "It’s a tradition"

Well if it’s a tradition then they should do it in the traditional methods, sailing boats as mother ships, small rowing boats, and hand thrown spears. They should also be prepared to accept the corresponding loss of human life that accompanied this type of hunting.

There is no market for whale meat in Japan at any price. The organization responsible for marketing it is trying whale burgers, selling them at a loss, with little success.
There is no byproduct that we don't have a better synthetic replacement for.

 

[Kim]

The purpose of continuing whaling for Japan is not to feed its people but to prop up an industry in a tiny area of Japan that has little other.

Actually that's not quite true. The real whaling industry in Shimonoseki has already disappeared. (I live about 30 miles away..) They only maintain a rather small scientific fleet these days. Your comments about lack of desire for whale meat here though are very accurate - there IS no long term future for whaling in Japan. No-one wants it.

I'd just like to clear up a misconception though. Traditionally, as an island, Japan has always taken from the sea. They did traditionally take a few whales, but until the 2WW that wasn't very many and it really wasn't mainstream. Just before the war America blockaded many things from Japan, and of course during the war they had real problems getting stuff from outside. That's when they started to seriously eat whale - for survival. After the war they still had nothing, and they HAD to eat whale to survive - there was very little else. In fact this was something the Americans, under McArthur, totally agreed with. At that time and up to the international ban on whaling, whale meat was the cheapest high protein meat on the Japanese market. Then they were told they couldn't eat it anymore.....they could pay more for American beef! Well...actually they did, and so nowadays people eat beef (which they never did traditionally) and they don't eat whale (which most adults grew up with as being the only thing they got). I like whales and I wish them well. I find it hard though to see the constant attacks on the Japanese who have been extremely hypocritically treated IMHO - first being told "Do this" - then "Do that" - and all very much according to what suits America best.

 

[neilstewart]

Agreed, unsubsidised commercial whaling is not viable in Japan. I am not sure commercial reasons are alone justification for anything. You could argue that drug dealing has commercial justification.

Sailing boats and spears again, oh dear. Incidentally at one point the UK was the biggest hunter of whale in the world with over 40% of market share. Whale oil providing the light under which the industrial revolution founded this countries economy.

Agreed there is no market in Japan for this product. My point is that of the 125 million people in Japan only a miniscule fraction have any involvement at all but the nation bashers will stress their point as if everyone in Japan in going to school with whale sushi in their lunchbox. That is what is unaccetable to me, so I am required to offer the reader of this forum some balance even if I am playing devils advocate.

 

[Kim]

Agreed, unsubsidised commercial whaling is not viable in Japan. I am not sure commercial reasons are alone justification for anything. You could argue that drug dealing has commercial justification.

Sailing boats and spears again, oh dear. Incidentally at one point the UK was the biggest hunter of whale in the world with over 40% of market share. Whale oil providing the light under which the industrial revolution founded this countries economy.

Agreed there is no market in Japan for this product. My point is that of the 125 million people in Japan only a miniscule fraction have any involvement at all but the nation bashers will stress their point as if everyone in Japan in going to school with whale sushi in their lunchbox. That is what is unaccetable to me, so I am required to offer the reader of this forum some balance even if I am playing devils advocate.

Oh...I agree with you Neil. There is simply a lot of high emotion coupled with mis-information around this topic. It's hard to get people to realize the reality of the situation - especially when action groups try to appeal to people through the visuals of whaling etc. People would probably get extremely funny in their stomachs if they had to see how their meat is prepared from live animal to cellophane wrapped cutlet on the supermarket shelf - abattoirs aren't pretty actually. The level of whaling that is occuring now isn't threatening any extinction. Other stuff is - but not hunting.
People just don't want to believe that though.

 

[Tassie_Rohan]

Taking a few hundred minke or fin whales will not dent their populations.

They're cute - like most mammals, so maybe we should ban eating lamb and cow for the same reason.

Its funny how different cultures view food: up here people are disgusted by the fact that I eat lamb: as devout Buddhists they consider killing a baby animal for food repulsive. The more I think about it the more I agree with them.

So: what makes western views on food the correct one?

Cheers,
Rohan.