Iceland and Japan share the same Futon

[Tassie_Rohan]

I'm not concerned what people eat: only that the resource is managed in a sustainable way.

Its funny how people get their knickers in a knot over a few whales, the cows of the sea, yet the fact that the shark population in many areas is being decimated by shark finning hardly makes the pages. And the concerted attempt by fishermen to wipe out the Patagonian tooth fish and Orange Roughy populations falls well below the radar.

Cheers,
Rohan.

 

[Mr.X]

Agreed, unsubsidised commercial whaling is not viable in Japan. I am not sure commercial reasons are alone justification for anything. You could argue that drug dealing has commercial justification.

Sailing boats and spears again, oh dear. Incidentally at one point the UK was the biggest hunter of whale in the world with over 40% of market share. Whale oil providing the light under which the industrial revolution founded this countries economy.

Agreed there is no market in Japan for this product. My point is that of the 125 million people in Japan only a miniscule fraction have any involvement at all but the nation bashers will stress their point as if everyone in Japan in going to school with whale sushi in their lunchbox. That is what is unaccetable to me, so I am required to offer the reader of this forum some balance even if I am playing devils advocate.

Your devil's advocacy aside, I do think it's OK to point out countries for the ill-minded practices which they promote, or ignore. Again, it's the country, not the person. If anything, Japan purchasing whale meat from Iceland shows complicity. If not sharing the same futon, then what is it?

In the end, what we do here is peck away on a keyboard. I try to get out as much as possible and do stuff. What bothers me these days is the genocide in Darfur. Why am I bringing this up? Because there is a correlation with regards to how governments, those in power treat each other and the denizens of this planet.

 

[Kim]

In the end, what we do here is peck away on a keyboard. I try to get out as much as possible and do stuff. What bothers me these days is the genocide in Darfur.

I couldn't agree more. I'm not going to presume that we actually see things the same way, but considering you just said that.........I've said a few times that for me it's a question of proportion. I just don't see whaling on the same level as something like Darfur, or AIDS, hunger, child soldiers, sex slaves, people smugglers etc. I know that's not a reason to totally forget about whaling, and I'm not suggesting that. I just wish that people would reserve some of their passion for more important things though - the fact that they don't seem to makes me wonder if they really do consider such things more important - especially when I see someone come right out and say that the life of a whale is worth just the same as the life of a person. On the other hand maybe people feel it's easier to complain about whaling than do something about Darfur, or issues like that.
It makes me wonder about values.....proportion....and balance.

I've been called quite a few names over the issue of whaling by people who think they know how I feel about it. I expect following this series of posts from Neil, Rohan and myself we'll probably get called some more. There isn't a lot you can do with people who have already made up their minds.

 

[Mr.X]

I couldn't agree more. I'm not going to presume that we actually see things the same way, but considering you just said that.........I've said a few times that for me it's a question of proportion. I just don't see whaling on the same level as something like Darfur, or AIDS, hunger, child soldiers, sex slaves, people smugglers etc. I know that's not a reason to totally forget about whaling, and I'm not suggesting that. I just wish that people would reserve some of their passion for more important things though - the fact that they don't seem to makes me wonder if they really do consider such things more important - especially when I see someone come right out and say that the life of a whale is worth just the same as the life of a person. On the other hand maybe people feel it's easier to complain about whaling than do something about Darfur, or issues like that.
It makes me wonder about values.....proportion....and balance.

I've been called quite a few names over the issue of whaling by people who think they know how I feel about it. I expect following this series of posts from Neil, Rohan and myself we'll probably get called some more. There isn't a lot you can do with people who have already made up their minds.

Cheers. IMO it comes down to values, or existing mental models.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_model

I think the debate is healthy...you and I have certainly hashed it out. As long as we motivate folks to do something rather than sitting on their arses thinking about what new car to buy, what trivial diversion I need or how I look (Paris Hilton) today. Egocentric perspective(s) like the US's Manifest Destiny have gotten us to the point we are at now.

 

[Zingtea]

The level of whaling that is occuring now isn't threatening any extinction. Other stuff is - but not hunting.

As if that were remotely true!

They're cute - like most mammals, so maybe we should ban eating lamb and cow for the same reason.

Which doesn't sound like a bad idea. We'd probably have more food available if we weren't feeding all these livestock. There would be less starvation worldwide.

 

[Kim]

As if that were remotely true!

Well...actually it is. Refusal to see facts doesn't make them less true. There might be other valid reasons to argue against whaling, but trying to pretend that present day hunting is actually threatening them still has no basis in reality IMO. Having said that - all the way through this discussion, over MANY threads and MORE than 2 years now, both sides have quite rightly asked for documented evidence to support statements which are made. If you have any scientific evidence that CURRENT levels of hunting are driving any species to extinction please provide it. I don't mean historical stuff - or projections of what might happen if controls were relaxed - I mean CURRENT. Until now I haven't seen any - but maybe you know of some valid studies that the rest of us don't. Once we can lay the emotional part of this discussion to rest it'll be a lot easier to think of effective ways to influence something that we all want - the sustainability of whale populations world-wide. Personally I think with the current restrictions we've probably already got there - as far as I know most species are growing in numbers now. Their biggest threat (debatably) is now coming from global warming which is an entirely different environmental problem - certainly not one that can only be laid at the doors of Iceland, Japan, and Norway. The shift in krill movements in the Southern Ocean is really screwing things up.

 

[Kim]

Which doesn't sound like a bad idea. We'd probably have more food available if we weren't feeding all these livestock. There would be less starvation worldwide.

Quite right. It takes about 5 tons of first grade vegetable protein to produce a beef cow that weighs a ton and a half. I wonder if all the anti-whale folks are prepared to give up their steak and McDonalds! I bet if they did Japan would stop whaling pretty damn quick!

 

[neilstewart]

Can I thank all contributors so far to this forum. I do feel that we have conducted healthy debate around this topic and I for one am taking something positive form the ideas of my fellow board members.

Neil

 

[Kim]

as far as I know most species are growing in numbers now.

And just to follow my own advice and back my statement up a little...

The most recent whale population estimates from the IWC:
http://www.iwcoffice.org/conservation/estimate.htm
Enjoy.

 

[Zingtea]

Its funny how people get their knickers in a knot over a few whales, the cows of the sea, yet the fact that the shark population in many areas is being decimated by shark finning hardly makes the pages. And the concerted attempt by fishermen to wipe out the Patagonian tooth fish and Orange Roughy populations falls well below the radar.

Tell me what drives you to call whales cows. Is it because cetaceans are descended from ungulates? That would make humans "baboons with harpoons". Don't pretend that there aren't people that care about sharks and the rest of the marine ecosystem. If you and Kim want to help whalers so much, you'd do better to go do it yourself rather than point fingers at those around them (sealers, fishermen, slaughterhouse workers, poachers, etc.).