If I should die while diving.

[lamont]

You are so right. It is a free country and anyone can think or say what they want (short of inciting a riot). The point I am making is that uninformed speculation is just that - uninformed.

You are using black and white logic. In the actual world, knowledge is fuzzy and our ability to know anything is in shades of grey or percentages. We may have a very high degree of certainty in our applied understanding of gravity (things fall down). We know much less about most scuba diving accidents, but we do not know *nothing* about them. And I do believe we can search for patterns within the fuzzy dataset and come up with conclusions that have higher confidences than what we can see in any one incident. That is why its useful to carefully think and speculate about incidents.

It is not something to learn from.

You don't think it is, and I completely disagree.

You seem to assume that all people are stupid enough to take situations where the facts aren't known with 100% certainty and draw 100% certain conclusions out of them. In reality, *everything* that we know is not known with 100% certainty. All knowledge is fundamentally a process of determining what things we believe with more certainty and pushing the limits of how certain something is known. Epistomologically there is absolutely no way to arrive at a known 100% truth short of simple evidence-free faith.

But as you say it is inherent in people to speculate and they have a right to do it. On this board, too often, speculation turns into uninformed judgment by well-intended people wanting to produce "lessons". I simply think the excercise useless and with potential for harm. But, like gossip, if people want to do it, it is ok. Just call it what it is - speculation and don't try and learn a lesson from speculation (or, I should say, I won't).

Fine. If you can't accept anything you don't know with 100% certainty that's your right and I can't stop you.

The other problem with speculation is that it ripples out beyond the dive community into the public and family. When the family members see this gossipy speculation (and it is all over this board - often by divers with no experience - but this is rightfully a "democratic" board), it just fosters doubt with family and friends, perhaps about the divers involved - even though it is totally groundless. These people do get referred to this board and read it whether we think about it or not.

I don't buy into censoring or quashing discussion because words might hurt someone. That is a very dangerous way to think about speech.

So, anyway, say what we want - this is America. But ethically, think about what you are saying in terms of its merit and in a context beyond the dive community and how family or friends will take it if they read it. If it is just speculation, call it that.

Sure, and there's usually one or two loudmouths who all they want to do is rationalize how they dive and that it couldn't happen to them. They're your posterchildren for why you don't like speculation. You're allowing them to frame and control the debate, though, if you just quash it all.

As an aside, and not to be insulting by any means, I find this notion of "If I should die..." just incredibly naive. But as I said, it is a free country and that is my opinion.

Naive? It happens to everyone.

 

[Cacia]

You're allowing them to frame and control the debate, though, if you just quash it all.

I must say, I have a lot of respect for this idea you continually advance. Like the time you said omissions can be as political as any commission, or things that are said.

(And Lamont and I dive as differently as night and day...but I think this outlook is even more fundamental than *how* you dive. I continually self correct in tiny increments of information, ie assumptions and speculative conclusions.)

I am very worried about all the discourse that is continually and increasingly being shut down in my everyday life...often for no better reason than social sensibilities. I made a comment the other day about a death and that there were three 350+lb individuals..it is socially unacceptable to give even descriptive terms any more. At what point will it be rude to give their ages? ..it frightens me, it's eerie. I never want to offend anyone, but random vacumes of information due to some set of social particulars really scares me.

 

[stevewirl]

well stated UP ,
im going to print it and read it to my club as part of the lectur program that we are running .


if i sould die while diving let everyone know i died happy

 

[ddimples]

this is just so depressive!: ( why should you think about death?? I get so touched when talking about death. . i dont like it when i get sad like this.

 

[SEA~TEC]

Awsome poem... I had to change the last line a bit to fit me

If I should die while diving... I want all to know, I died doing what I love


to the nay sayers out there, if you do not accept the risk, you can never fully appreciate the reward

 

[firstdive2005]

thanks dandy for the phone number reminder. my wife asked me for them and I forgot to load them in our phones. (just in case I mess up)or whatever the issue while diving. I am a new diver and I love all the discussion about diving. Me thinks most divers have a level of smarts that is above those that would gamble their lives precariously. So that being said most reading these forums use these forums as a framework for caution and care while diving. I am ashamed that there is so much bickering about the way diving should be made safer. Just let your so called expertease be out there for others to learn from. Ethics on how someones demise is processed is personal. I would hope that if I go meet my maker downunder then I pray the incident is processed by the community to help access certain areas of diving that would or could save a life. be well

 

[DandyDon]

thanks dandy for the phone number reminder. my wife asked me for them and I forgot to load them in our phones. (just in case I mess up)or whatever the issue while diving. I am a new diver and I love all the discussion about diving. Me thinks most divers have a level of smarts that is above those that would gamble their lives precariously. So that being said most reading these forums use these forums as a framework for caution and care while diving. I am ashamed that there is so much bickering about the way diving should be made safer. Just let your so called expertease be out there for others to learn from. Ethics on how someones demise is processed is personal. I would hope that if I go meet my maker downunder then I pray the incident is processed by the community to help access certain areas of diving that would or could save a life. be well

Glad the suggestion helped. Did you test dial them? I do that, too. 351 dives now and I have seen 6 divers leave in ambulances. It amazes me that some dive without DAN or similar insurnace, travel out of the US without Trip insurance, and/or don't have DAN numbers readily available. DAN helps a lot with DAN Divers Alert Network : Membership : TravelAssist - diving or non-diving needs...

DAN Membership
TravelAssist

1-800-326-3822 (1-800-DAN-EVAC)
If outside the USA, Canada, Puerto Rico, Bahamas, British or U.S. Virgin Islands, call +1-919-684-3483 (collect).

When you join DAN, you are automatically enrolled in DAN's travel assistance plan and your family is covered with your family membership. If you travel at least 50 miles/80 km from your permanent residence, TravelAssist is there to help 24 hours a day. DAN TravelAssist, through MedAire, Inc., arranges emergency medical evacuations for any medical emergency - and provides many more benefits - for you and your immediate family members.

IMPORTANT: DAN TravelAssist must arrange ALL evacuations. If you make your own emergency evacuation arrangements DAN TravelAssist will not reimburse the cost.

MEDICAL ASSISTANCE

* Emergency Evacuation and Repatriation
Covers up to a maximum of $100,000 per person (if a Family Membership) for an emergency evacuation, or medically necessary repatriation.
* Prescription Assistance
Locates and arranges to send medication or eyeglasses when it's possible and legally acceptable.
* Medical Expense
Advances up to $5,000 for hospital admittance or discharge deposits.
* Medical Monitoring
Work with local medical providers and relay necessary information to the member and the member's family until the situation is resolved.
* 24-Hour Worldwide Medical Information and Assistance
Provides 24-hour multilingual assistance and consultation along with non-diving related medical referrals to physicians, hospitals and specialists.

(see link for more info)

 

[DivingPrincessE]

Since this thread has been resurrected...where is Uncle Pug? I haven't seen him post in a while.

 

[DandyDon]

Since this thread has been resurrected...where is Uncle Pug? I haven't seen him post in a while.

He just doesn't post here much anymore? Twice in the last year and one of those was in an ad...

 

[DivingPrincessE]

hmm, it's sad to see the regulars go...although such is the nature of a message board I suppose.