Is a Swimthrough an overhead?

[whitedragon13]

I take people through lava tube swimthroughs all the time based on the NAUI guidance I posted earlier. I ALWAYS ask them if they're ok to proceed first and I don't take them through ones that are too narrow for us to go side by side.

Even though the NAUI guidance even allows entering a wreck (unless it has been modified for non-tech penetration), I wouldn't do that...it's too tempting for someone to take the next step and enter another area.

It's the same with many of the springs in Florida. You can enter "overhead" cave areas without "penetrating" since they have the caves blocked off.

I guess IMHO the cut-off between true "overhead" and "swimthrough" is the opportunity to get lost inside.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Yeah. I know. That's why I'm trying to figure out if I should be supervising/guiding dives like this.

I will gladly take trusted buddies on this dive. But I've been thinking lately I should probably not be taking the boat guy's customers on this dive in a DM capacity.

I'm not one of those who thinks you need a seperate card for every little thing you do different but I never took students or divers I was guiding into any overhead unless they were trained already or I was teaching an overhead class...ice, cavern or wreck.

It's the same with many of the springs in Florida. You can enter "overhead" cave areas without "penetrating" since they have the caves blocked off.

Yes and there's been a couple of deaths of open water divers in those "OW diver safe" Florida caverns lately too. When these property owners don't have any open water worth diving they tend to dub their cavern as "OW diver safe" so they still have a business.

One of the quarries we dive has a little wreck at about 40 ft that you can easily enter and divers do. You're surrounded by windows so it doesn't feel very confining but most people would fit through the windows and the door is narrow and quarters are more confinning than they look. I used to like to take students to the wreck and one of my DM's (cave trained) and I would go in and demonstrate an air sharring exit while students watch from the outside.

That little boat isn't much but when you see divers in there it all azzes and elbows and if any of those divers do run into trouble it might just get real serious real fast.

Many overhead environments look deceptively easy and I always showed students the video "A Deceptively Easy way to Die" because it is deceptively easy.

 

[doole]

Yeah. I know. That's why I'm trying to figure out if I should be supervising/guiding dives like this.

I will gladly take trusted buddies on this dive. But I've been thinking lately I should probably not be taking the boat guy's customers on this dive in a DM capacity.

Come to think of it, technically I think that as a DM, you can take them wherever they're willing to go more or less, can't you? As certified divers, it's up to the passengers to make their own decisions, I would think.

 

[Snowbear]

Come to think of it, technically I think that as a DM, you can take them wherever they're willing to go more or less, can't you? As certified divers, it's up to the passengers to make their own decisions, I would think.

Yes, it's up to the certified divers to do or not do the dive.
But - just because I'm comfortable doing a dive doesn't make it OK to take others there. By briefing and "leading" the dive as a DM, am I not essentially telling them it's OK for them, as certified OW (or AOW, whatever) divers to do the dive?

 

[Mako Mark]

Yes, it's up to the certified divers to do or not do the dive.
But - just because I'm comfortable doing a dive doesn't make it OK to take others there. By briefing and "leading" the dive as a DM, am I not essentially telling them it's OK for them, as certified OW (or AOW, whatever) divers to do the dive?

That works fine in theory snowbear, until something goes wrong and you get a money hungry lawyer with PADI's deep pockets in their sights and you as their stepping stone..

If in doubt, be the last one through the swimthrough, that way no one can accuse you of leading them, or obliging them to go through under duress. In fact you could claim to be the one that was forced to go through under duress, against your better jugement.

 

[H2Andy]

until something goes wrong and you get a money hungry lawyer with PADI's deep pockets in their sights and you as their stepping stone.

"money hungry lawyer" are such ugly words... i prefer "lawyer working for
free to help the family of a recently departed diver..."


neither extreme is close to the truth

 

[Snowbear]

That works fine in theory snowbear, until something goes wrong and you get a money hungry lawyer with PADI's deep pockets in their sights and you as their stepping stone.

Yep - if it wasn't for the potential of getting sued, I wouldn't even be asking.

 

[doole]

Regardless of liability issues, I think the operative word here is "doubt".

If there is any, don't do it. Like every other dive.

 

[Snowbear]

There is no doubt for me. And no doubt as to taking buddies there.
The doubt comes in because of the liability issues.... as is always the case when insurance, lawyers, and DM duties are involved.

So it seems the original question has been answered with a definite, "YES." In this particular case, when doing the dive as a DM from a charter oat, the swimthrough is in fact an overhead environment.....

 

[doole]

There is no doubt for me. And no doubt as to taking buddies there.
The doubt comes in because of the liability issues.... as is always the case when insurance, lawyers, and DM duties are involved.

So it seems the original question has been answered with a definite, "YES." In this particular case, when doing the dive as a DM from a charter oat, the swimthrough is in fact an overhead environment.....

Doubt is doubt and risk is risk, my friend. High risk should beget high pay.