Do you fiddle with it trying to get it out of the way when you have the butt of the gun against your chest to load the gun?
Jacket BCDs, BP/W and bouyancy question
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Do you fiddle with it trying to get it out of the way when you have the butt of the gun against your chest to load the gun?
cool_hardware52
Contributor
Yes, I design and sell BP&W's. I've always been entirely upfront about that.
Can you cite a *single* example where I have provided untrue information about BP&W's to support your unmerited attack on my character?
Tobin
halocline
Contributor
I imagine this comment is pretty much tongue-in-cheek, but I still wanted to comment on it. There are some vendors on this forum who do use their participation primarily to sell their stuff (well one in particular whose username includes an aquatic rodent) but that's not Tobin. If anything, he probably intimidates more potential customers than he attracts when he gets arguing. I suspect he got started building this stuff specifically because of the shortcomings of existing gear and an interest in improving on it. Eric is the same way with his freedom plates. I don't think either of them are commenting in order to sell gear.
Eric Sedletzky
Contributor
When I made my first plate I had no intentions to make them to sell. People saw it and begged for me to make them one. Demand made me put them into production. It started locally and then went international.
Trust me, there isn't a lot of money in making plates. I do it because I'm a firm believer in what I'm doing. I developed a strong dislike of Jacket BC's a long time ago; the way they performed, and the way they were pushed on the diving public as there being no other choice. I got an OMS backplate back in 2000 as soon as I learned about them by reading the internet. I didn't know there was something else besides the modern jacket otherwise I would have bought a plate from the start.
I always liked the designs of the old school backpack, which was made pretty much obsolete before I got into diving.
I was happy using the OMS plate, but I had a few ideas on how to make a plate even better. So using my imagination on how to merge the two concepts together (modern plate and backpack) I came up with a modern plate that could use all the modern accessories including a wing but was shaped like an old school backpack, and that's how the Freedom Plate was born. It was originally called the Freedom plate because of the freedom of movement it gave my shoulder blades, but now I'm thinking the meaning should be Freedom from Jacket BC's and all the other bulky entrapment's and convoluted, over stuffed, over engineered junk that people need to be freed from. The evolution of the jacket BC and what it has become is an absolute nightmare, IMO....the worst thing I have ever seen.
And what's an even bigger nightmare are the attitudes of the dive shops and the rest of the mainstream dive industry regarding anything new and exciting.....and that's putting it mildly.
So yeah, I guess in part for me it's a political thing, more than making money that's for sure.
I make plates when I can afford to, if that tells you anything about the economics of my particular design and what I have to go through to produce them.
I do it because people love them and I want to do my part to change diving for the better,...and because they won't leave me alone so I cave in and make more.
Trust me, there isn't a lot of money in making plates. I do it because I'm a firm believer in what I'm doing. I developed a strong dislike of Jacket BC's a long time ago; the way they performed, and the way they were pushed on the diving public as there being no other choice. I got an OMS backplate back in 2000 as soon as I learned about them by reading the internet. I didn't know there was something else besides the modern jacket otherwise I would have bought a plate from the start.
I always liked the designs of the old school backpack, which was made pretty much obsolete before I got into diving.
I was happy using the OMS plate, but I had a few ideas on how to make a plate even better. So using my imagination on how to merge the two concepts together (modern plate and backpack) I came up with a modern plate that could use all the modern accessories including a wing but was shaped like an old school backpack, and that's how the Freedom Plate was born. It was originally called the Freedom plate because of the freedom of movement it gave my shoulder blades, but now I'm thinking the meaning should be Freedom from Jacket BC's and all the other bulky entrapment's and convoluted, over stuffed, over engineered junk that people need to be freed from. The evolution of the jacket BC and what it has become is an absolute nightmare, IMO....the worst thing I have ever seen.
And what's an even bigger nightmare are the attitudes of the dive shops and the rest of the mainstream dive industry regarding anything new and exciting.....and that's putting it mildly.
So yeah, I guess in part for me it's a political thing, more than making money that's for sure.
I make plates when I can afford to, if that tells you anything about the economics of my particular design and what I have to go through to produce them.
I do it because people love them and I want to do my part to change diving for the better,...and because they won't leave me alone so I cave in and make more.
I'd have to agree. While both of them obviously have a commercial interest in people wanting to buy BP/W I don't think either of them are arguing the point because of that. On the contrary, it seems that the same passion they bring to this thread is the reason they make the gear they do, not the other way around. Despite the fact that we don't fully agree with each other about certain points, I have no reason whatsoever to question the motives of either one of them for posting on this thread.
R..
admikar
Contributor
+1
And I like open feeling of single piece harness. If I do need pockets or clips,I can always put some on existing harness, and remove it if not needed.
I do not know what is a drag difference, but I never managed frog kick in a jacket BC, whenever I stroke, I went head down. In bpw I just glide.
If no bpw, would I ditch the dive? Of course not. If there is a choice would I choose bpw over a jacket? Yes.
Like already said, it is my preference, it works for me, and that is all that matters to me.
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My first two BCDs were both back inflate models (Zeagle Ranger and ScubaPro Nighthawk). For more than a decade I have done recreational scuba instruction using jacket BCDs. I have used a BP/w for my own diving and for my technical instruction for quite a few years now. I think I can safely say I am pretty familiar with all three styles. I will firmly agree that if you are a good diver, you can do a basic recreational dive happily and comfortably with any of them. I was, however, struck by a difference only a few days ago during an instructional session in a pool.
When I am doing pool sessions normally, it is to teach OW students. I use the same gear as the students--jacket BCDs. I try to get my students reasonably in trim, putting weights in pockets on the cam bands to try to balance out the weights on the weight belt or the integrated pockets. (I use both during different pool sessions.) It's not easy to get the trim right that way, and that includes with myself. I do the best I can, but it isn't quite right.
The last pool session was different because it was a technical class. Even in the pool, for technical classes I usually use my dry suit and steel doubles, but in this case I used AL 80 doubles, a steel BP, and a wet suit. I had some other gear as well, of course. I did not need any weights. For quite some time, I was just hanging in place watching my students work their way through their skills. At one point I was thinking how absolutely effortless it was for me to just hang in place horizontally, without moving a muscle, while I watched them. I was struck by that because I had only a few days before taught an OW class with the jacket BCD and my attempts to distribute the weights to get my trim right. It was not nearly so effortless to hold my position. Some fin sculling with my feet was necessary.
I guess if I had to sum up the ideas scattered in this post, they would be:
1. A good diver can enjoy a dive with any BCD that fits, and that diver can look pretty good in any equipment.
2. A BP/W makes it easier than a jacket BCD to maintain good trim, so divers who are not concerned about good trim while they dive will not notice the difference, nor will they care about it.
3. A skilled diver is more apt to be doing the kind of diving where the differences stand out.
When I am doing pool sessions normally, it is to teach OW students. I use the same gear as the students--jacket BCDs. I try to get my students reasonably in trim, putting weights in pockets on the cam bands to try to balance out the weights on the weight belt or the integrated pockets. (I use both during different pool sessions.) It's not easy to get the trim right that way, and that includes with myself. I do the best I can, but it isn't quite right.
The last pool session was different because it was a technical class. Even in the pool, for technical classes I usually use my dry suit and steel doubles, but in this case I used AL 80 doubles, a steel BP, and a wet suit. I had some other gear as well, of course. I did not need any weights. For quite some time, I was just hanging in place watching my students work their way through their skills. At one point I was thinking how absolutely effortless it was for me to just hang in place horizontally, without moving a muscle, while I watched them. I was struck by that because I had only a few days before taught an OW class with the jacket BCD and my attempts to distribute the weights to get my trim right. It was not nearly so effortless to hold my position. Some fin sculling with my feet was necessary.
I guess if I had to sum up the ideas scattered in this post, they would be:
1. A good diver can enjoy a dive with any BCD that fits, and that diver can look pretty good in any equipment.
2. A BP/W makes it easier than a jacket BCD to maintain good trim, so divers who are not concerned about good trim while they dive will not notice the difference, nor will they care about it.
3. A skilled diver is more apt to be doing the kind of diving where the differences stand out.
I am amused by the passion stirred by these discussions. I own a back inflate for travel, a dive rite transplate for local or drive to dive single tank dive trips, and a hog harness and plate for my doubles, so I dive a lot of different configurations and enjoy them all, with a 3 mil, rental aluminum tank, warm salt water diving, I use 10 lbs. I don't find my backinflate inherently floaty and needing a lot of extra weight . I love my transplate when diving in my drysuit with a single hp100 steel and 14 lbs. in cold, fresh water. I love my hp100 doubles with the hog harness, with extra d rings for stages, travel gasses etc. I don't pretend one style works for all types of diving, each style I use is the right piece FOR ME, in a given dive situation. The only style I don't own, and literally have never dove is a jacket BCD, does that mean it is not the right BCD for someone else? No, my suggestion, try different configurations, find what fits your need and comfort while diving is the best for YOU.
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