Legal Question - Waivers

[MechDiver]

O-ring once bubbled...

Is this situation similar to employment law, in that the officers of the club, as well as the club as an entity, can be held personally liable for an accident on a trip (i.e. someone dies and their family tries to sue)? The waiver will not protect us from potential litigation and we would have to cover court costs out of our pockets if we had no liability insurance.

Does that sum it up pretty well?

Just FWIW, in our case anyway. We have been told that the club officers can be held personally liable in case of, essentially anything, that happens during a club event. This includes someone breaking their leg during a meeting.

We have a one million $ liability policy that covers us (the Board) by NAME, as well as the membership as a whole against anything short of a nuc. It also includes acts of terrorism <sigh>.

As has been stated, with our total overabundance of lawyers, anyone can sue you for anything, it doesn't matter if it has any merit. IMO, as a Club, you are foolhardy to not have coverage. Ours costs $800 a year or therabout, and I would not serve as a club officer without it.

MD

 

[WJL]

MechDiver once bubbled...


As has been stated, with our total overabundance of lawyers, anyone can sue you for anything, it doesn't matter if it has any merit.

MD

I have to comment about this because it reflects a common misconception. It is literally true that anyone can sue you for anything, regardless of merit, in the sense that nothing stops an idiot from filing a stupid lawsuit. Getting sued in a stupid lawsuit is not the same thing as losing the lawsuit. Stupid lawsuits are tossed out of court. That's what judges do. It happens every day. It just doesn't make the news. If a case goes to trial, much less to judgment, it had to get past a whole series of procedural hurdles designed to get rid of bad lawsuits. And even if somebody wins a judgment, they have to convince some appellate court that they can keep it. So when you read about some big judgment in a case that seems stupid, take a look at how the facts about the story are reported. The stories usually come from some insurance industry group, and are distorted to further their agenda of discrediting our legal system.

Lawyers who represent injured people generally only get paid if they win. This is a strong disincentive to file stupid lawsuits that will get tossed out of court. Contingent fee lawyers who file stupid lawsuits will go out of business, because they never make any money.

People ***** about lawyers and sneer at lawsuits until something happens to them. Then they come into my office and are astounded when I explain to them that we won't file a lawsuit on their behalf because the caps on damages in this state make a lawsuit impossible. "Wait," they complain, "Those caps are for the stupid lawsuits. I'm not a faker. I have a real injury." Sorry, the caps apply to everybody's case, good and bad alike. You must accept "personal responsibilty" for having your hand chopped off in a defective press. The manufacturer of the press has convinced the public that all product liablity lawsuits are frivolous, and it now gets to sell whatever defective product it wants, comfortable in the knowledge that nobody can recover more than a few hundred thousand dollars from them for the pain and suffering they cause, no matter how defective their product or what injury it caused.

 

[MechDiver]

WJL once bubbled...


I have to comment about this because it reflects a common misconception. It is literally true that anyone can sue you for anything, regardless of merit, in the sense that nothing stops an idiot from filing a stupid lawsuit. Getting sued in a stupid lawsuit is not the same thing as losing the lawsuit. Stupid lawsuits are tossed out of court

And in the meantime, someone has to pay the lawyer to go to court to get the worthless lawsuit thrown out, yada yada yada. And, if you don't have an attorney who would file a worthless lawsuit, or they were held negligent if they did, then it wouldn't happen. As you say above, the judges throw out the worthless lawsuits, not the lawyers. And then only after they have cost someone to fight them.

It is nice that you have standards, but far too many don't.

I should also note that the club is a non-profit corporation, but that may or may not protect us. We also have an attorney as a member (but we make him dive by himself)

 

[WJL]

Well you're right that somebody that gets sued in a worthless lawsuit still has to deal with it. It's no fun when it happens to you. Somebody has to pay a lawyer to get it thrown out. But, the point I'm harping on is that it happens far less often than most people seem to believe. The system is already set up so that it makes no economic sense for people to file frivolous suits that are sure losers. In most places, there are actual economic penalties which can be assessed against frivolous lawsuits. Truly "frivolous" lawsuits are pretty rare. I've been in litigation for more than twenty years, representing big businesses and ordinary folks in hundreds of cases, and I've been a court-appointed mediator for dozens of cases. I can only think of a few lawsuits I've seen that were actually frivolous. Of course, pretty much everyone who gets sued has strong feelings about the merits of the other side's case. Most people (and I'm one of them) have a hard time accepting that they might have done something wrong or that the other side might actully have a valid claim.

 

[WJL]

MechDiver once bubbled...


I should also note that the club is a non-profit corporation, but that may or may not protect us. We also have an attorney as a member (but we make him dive by himself)

A non-profit corporation is a good idea. It will "protect" you in certain ways, but not others. It would take a while to explain it all, and anyways, you should be getting advice on this from a local lawyer who knows your laws. I can't be giving all this stuff away, or the lawyer's guild will come after me. And if you wouldn't make that lawyer in your club dive by himself, he might stop pouting and help you out with this. Lawyers have feeling too you know. (Hey, that's a good one. I'll have to tell it to my lawyer buddies.)

 

[MechDiver]

WJL once bubbled...
Well you're right that somebody that gets sued in a worthless lawsuit still has to deal with it. It's no fun when it happens to you. Somebody has to pay a lawyer to get it thrown out. But, the point I'm harping on is that it happens far less often than most people seem to believe. The system is already set up so that it makes no economic sense for people to file frivolous suits that are sure losers. In most places, there are actual economic penalties which can be assessed against frivolous lawsuits. Truly "frivolous" lawsuits are pretty rare. I've been in litigation for more than twenty years, representing big businesses and ordinary folks in hundreds of cases, and I've been a court-appointed mediator for dozens of cases. I can only think of a few lawsuits I've seen that were actually frivolous. Of course, pretty much everyone who gets sued has strong feelings about the merits of the other side's case. Most people (and I'm one of them) have a hard time accepting that they might have done something wrong or that the other side might actully have a valid claim.

I don't think you're ranting, on the contrary, the posts have been very informative. And, hey, ya gotta uphold the party line right? :bonk:

Actually, its because of our lawyer that we did the corporation bit, and as thanks for that, we allow him to stay in the club Actually, we figured if we tried to kick him out he'd sue us...

MD

 

[TCDiver1]

http://www.padimembers.com/cgi-bin/login.exe

It works for them, a good guide to work from.

Edit: that didn't work, let me try something else........

Edit, edit:

O-ring, i can't get this waiver copied from the website. If you want i can print and scan it to send to you. Pm if interested.

 

[WJL]

gedunk once bubbled...
http://www.padimembers.com/cgi-bin/login.exe

It works for them, a good guide to work from.

....

O-ring, i can't get this waiver copied from the website. If you want i can print and scan it to send to you. Pm if interested.

Alright, I'm going to sound like a Chicken Little Lawyer here, but just copying somebody else's form and changing the names is a Bad Idea. People go to law school to learn how to do this right. You have to pay lawyers to make them give you the Secret Knowledge, but if you pay, they will give.

Some of the most protracted lawsuits I've been involved with started because somebody didn't want to "waste" a couple hundred dollars getting advice from a "shyster" when they could write up something just as well themselves. That initial small economy can lead to enormous costs later.

Maybe you can use this form. Maybe it has some clause that makes it uneforceable in your jurisdiction. Do you know? Are you willing to bet all your assets that you're right?