Navarre accident

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Once we know a cause, then perhaps we can constructively discuss prevention... assuming the incident was preventable, which we also don't know at this point.

Until we know the cause of the accident, everything else is speculation.

Copy the thread into the Memorial Forum and then you can tell me that.

Even speculation without a known cause can provide an excellent platform for prevention and safety for several possible causes on the accident/incident. We go a long way in this manner, rather than only discussing one cause per accident.

 

[MRXRAY]

I think that it is important to wait until the results from the medical examiner and autopsy are released before we speculate on what happened. I will say that Diving is a sport with risk involved, and it should be treated as such. This accident has given me a slightly different perspective on life and how quickly it can end. Make sure that your friends, family and loved ones know how much you love diving, and them. Take a moment to ask yourself if you were to die on your next dive if your affairs are in order, and those you leave behind are prepared for the steps they will have to take without you!

 

[Hetland]

Well we could speculate the following:

• Diver ran out of air
• Diver had bad air
• Diver had equipment failure
• Diver’s reg was knocked out by:
  -Other diver
  -Debris
  -Unknown source
• Diver had a medical incident (heart attack, stroke, etc.)
• Diver had a dive-related embolism/dcs
• Diver was overcome by surge/wake/current/waves
• Debris fell from pier knocking diver unconscious
• Fisherman’s tackle struck/tangled diver
• Wakeboard struck diver
• Diver was affected by marine organism (blood loss, anaphylactic shock, etc.)
• Diver entered overhead environment and was unable to surface

This is just a site-specific list off the top of my head. I’m sure if I thought about it for more than a minute, I could double this list. We have no cause of death; we have no one who was with the diver immediately preceding or following the incident. My point is that until we have some idea of what happened, we are simply guessing. If you want to discuss random causes of dive injury/death or dangers present at Navarre Pier then so be it, but we need more details to deconstruct this particular event.

 

[ScubaSteve]

........but we need more details to deconstruct this particular event.

Because the only person that truly knows what happened is the subject of the autopsy, this argument will always be in place. This is the case in every accident because there is only one person that knows what was going through their mind at the time, what they did (or did not) do, what was happening before their eyes, what was happening with their gear etc. and that person is the person who has unfortunately left loved ones behind. No matter how much we think we know, there is always a certain level of speculation and/or assumptions that are made in deconstructing these cases.

Also, I believe MrXray has already professed to be present with the passed diver. He continued with their dive however he could, if he so choose, provide a wealth of site and condition specific information. There is no requirement or obligation to and nobody will badger him. That is not what this forum is about. This forum is about the:

The purpose of this forum is the promotion of safe diving through the examination and discussion of accidents and incidents; to find lessons we can apply to our own diving.
Accidents, and incidents that could easily have become accidents, can often be used to illustrate actions that lead to injury or death, and their discussion is essential to building lessons learned from which improved safety can flow. To foster the free exchange of information valuable to this process, the "manners" in this forum are much more tightly controlled than elsewhere on the board. In addition to the TOS:

(1) You may not release any names here, until after the names have appeared in the public domain (articles, news reports, sherrif's report etc.) The releasing report must be cited. Until such public release, the only name you may use in this forum is your own.
(2) No flaming, name calling or otherwise attacking other posters. You may attack ideas; you may not attack people.
(3) No trolling.
(4) No "condolences to the family" here

It is important for us as a community to assess and discuss diving accidents and incidents as a means of preventing them. However, once emotions are involved intelligent discussion becomes next to impossible. If the moderators feel that the discussion is getting out of hand in any thread they may close or remove the thread, with or without notice.

We want to make diving a sfer sport for all of us. This can be a dangerous sport as we all know and mother nature is unforgiving underwater. Hopefully this forum will help educate other diver's on what can happen, what to watch out for, how to handle different situations etc.. That is our goal with threads in this forum.

 

[ReefHound]

What is the difference between speculating and hypothesizing? While I agree we need more details there are some details available (which may or may not be accurate) that could make some of those possibilities more or less likely.

While many more details are available to authorities than to us, they likely won't be released to us. I just hope they know the right questions to ask and the right places to look. Cause of death on autopsies is almost always listed as drowning. Medical examiners don't address what precipitated the drowning. The sad reality is that too often details are released only to "set the record straight" from rumors and speculation.

BTW, whatever did the medical examiner conclude about packetsniffer?

 

[Hetland]

Also, I believe MrXray has already professed to be present with the passed diver. He continued with their dive however he could, if he so choose, provide a wealth of site and condition specific information.

He already did that.

We want to make diving a sfer sport for all of us. This can be a dangerous sport as we all know and mother nature is unforgiving underwater. Hopefully this forum will help educate other diver's on what can happen, what to watch out for, how to handle different situations etc.. That is our goal with threads in this forum.

Then just arbitrarily pick a cause and discuss how to avoid.

I'm not against the safety discussion. My point, once again, is that there are not enough details to deconstruct this incident. If the diver died from a cerebral aneurysm, then all we can learn is that we should go have an mri if we have a headache.

Example:

Diver was a 61 year old female
Diver was swimming prior to start of fatal dive
Diver was doing a shore dive
Diver’s group called dive because currents were too rough
Divers buddies made it to shore but couldn't find Diver
Diver was found in/below the surf
Diver was not moving
No bubbles were showing from Diver’s regulator
EMS worked Diver for at least 39 minutes

So we should all avoid rough currents and not moving in/below surf on beach dives when no bubbles are coming from our regulators after a called dive that separates us from our group. This is especially true if you swim prior to diving, and are a 61 year old female.

If you want to discuss why sharks bite humans, or how hazardous surf can be, then go ahead, but none of us can say that either of these was the cause of this particular accident.

 

[tom wicker]

Copy the thread into the Memorial Forum and then you can tell me that.

Even speculation without a known cause can provide an excellent platform for prevention and safety for several possible causes on the accident/incident. We go a long way in this manner, rather than only discussing one cause per accident.

Very well said

 

[ReefHound]

I'm not against the safety discussion. My point, once again, is that there are not enough details to deconstruct this incident.

I'm just curious, what do you see as the purpose of this forum? Can you show an example of an accident in this forum where there ever has been enough details known to deconstruct the accident?

 

[Hetland]

I'm just curious, what do you see as the purpose of this forum?

The meaningful discussion of diving Accidents and Incidents. Is that what this is?

Can you show an example of an accident in this forum where there ever has been enough details known to deconstruct the accident?

A start would be a cause of death, or an account from a witness. At this point we have neither (XRay was at the scene, but apparently the diver in question was with the group that returned to shore).

I think I've more than made my point. I've probably overdone it by several posts in fact. I hope to see somethinging along the lines of safety or prevention here soon. Either way, I've done my part to hijack this thread for too long, so I'll bow out like a gentleman.

-h

 

[MRXRAY]

The memorial service is tentaively set for Saturday, hopefully by then we may know more on a cuase of death, but as of right now the medical examiner has not released any details nor released the deceased back to the family.