Negative entry vs Using a downline

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Burn the witch burn the witch!! Just say "NO" to spli fins.

Rant off.

Dan seems to forget that he didn't come out of the womb a full fledged WKK diver. And that while he has many many dives, some the likes of which most of us don't even aspire to do, he's had many of the same dives over and over and over again. In reality he's s bit short on overall dive sites experience.

I don't like taking a line up or down either but if that's what's required on the dive that's what I'll do.
 
Clearly this has been one of my less popular opinions, in a long list of unpopular opinions:)
In any event, I will re-stress, that it is the "Captain" and their skill in deciding where to drop my buddies and I into the water that allows us to hit the wreck or reef with precision each time.
A good captain that is considering a hot drop for a challenging current and wreck, MUST know the descending speeds of each buddy team. Groups of 2 to 4 ( platform size dependent) are going to be cued up, and the Captain will know that these 4 can reach bottom in approx 50 seconds, so he or she must calculate how far up current, and if any side currents exist to vector in....If the captain knows another buddy team are slow descenders, they may get a drop that allows them 2 and a half minutes to reach bottom, at which time they should see the wreck looming up toward them.
And each team really needs it's own drop, so that from the DIVe, Dive,Dive, to all being in the water, is a couple of seconds and no more.....you can't have divers wandering up and pausing prior to jumping in....The Captain a crew are part of that equation as well--and so are the divers, in that since they have been told that go means go--they have to actually be ready for this... Again, not really an advanced skill.
The wrecks in less than 120 feet, are not so hard, as not that much drifting has to occur with a fast descent....but still, if you do a wreck you have dropped on many times easily by a good captain, then go out with a captain that does not know how to lead drops, it can be a miserable dive---you can be in way to early---and hope to recognize where you are, and swim to the wreck----or you can be past it or no where near it, which will usually means a sand dive.

So I am very picky about what dive boats I use in South florida. On the other hand, I have done some captaining of private boats myself, and I can do a 'fair" job of dropping, so I can estimate where I want to be dropped, and then get a captain without drop experience, to get us to a wreck---but this is not diving skill--this is captaining skill.

On the 280 foot tech wrecks we did so much of in the 90's, some were in 3-4 mph current with high vis--like the Rb Johnson Cory"n Chriss ( Lauderdale) or the 225 foot deep Skycliff ( Boynton)--and some were in even larger currents, off of Fort Pierce and Stuart, 25 miles out in 280 feet of water, with vis often so bad we would not know we hit bottom until the tip of our spearguns hit the bottom, and we would know that we had just collided with it ( though from watching depth gauge, you would expect to be hitting bottom "soon"). Drifting was the easy way to do each wreck or reef, whether the current was big or non-existentent on these deep sites-but only because of Captaining that could predict our descent rates and the vectoring of surface and mid depth currents.
Occasionally there would be a reverse current on the bottom from 250 on down, which would usually mean that temp would go from 70's to 50's.....This was what got us to begin wearing dry suits for tech dives, because of the annoyance of having to abort a dive due to hypothermia if wearing a wetsuit for 70's temperatures. But the bottom current would not normally mess up our drop particularly, as we would be falling so fast at the intersection with it, that we would not get vectored out of the planned drop points by it...and once you get "belly to the bottom", and behind patch reef or wreck structure on the bottom, you stop moving anyway.

And again, a "fast descent" is not an athletic undertaking....it is allowing yourself to fall with no air in your BC, and your body is vertical in the water column, and you are swimming, but not exerting in any way. If we are scooter diving, then it can be a screaming fast descent, which makes it all the more easy to hit a deep wreck, but again, I don't see ability to blow air into my Eustachian Tubes through my nose as a big skill I want to brag about. And this is really all that it takes :)


As to other conditions unlike what you think of regarding Palm Beach dives:
Craig Suavely dropped me on the Rankin ( wreck off of Stuart/Port St Lucie area) --about 135 deep , on one day where the vis was so bad, that all I could see on descent was my computer --and watching depth as I fell, so I could know when to look around for the wreck ( hoping vis at 120-130 might improve) , I shifted my attention from my computer at about 90 feet deep--to what I was bumping into.....I began bumping into these huge Lincoln Log barracudas, that liked to hang on top of the wreck.....they were not seeing me either--we would collide, and they would probably have been almost as surprised as I was....and I decided this would be a really bad day for spearfishing, and stayed down only about 3 more minutes before deciding this would not be a dive I could find a way to enjoy.


Back to the original point....this was in a discussion where a diver accident occurred, and the comment one poster made was that the diver should not have done a free descent, that they should have used a line to go down--that this was a safer and better method. I took issue with this, as a procedure. This is how this thread began, not by my just "out of the blue", deciding to trash use of lines for descent and ascent.

I am not going to try to change anyone that likes using lines. What I will do, is when I go out of this area, to a place like Misool ( which is likely in the next year as a photography and expedition leading job--ie., free....), and if the boat is going over a high current drop site they would normally anchor on, I will ask the Captain if he would be willing to drop Sandra and I on this prior to hooking off on it. I would suggest how far up-current I would like the drop, and if there is no or little current, I won't make a peep about this, because we can do our dives the way we always do, and swim back to the boat at dive end.
 
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tried a hot drop like that on the RBJ for the first time a couple weeks ago and totally missed the wreck. sounds to me like we weren't going fast enough.
that wreck diving stuff is tricky
 
tried a hot drop like that on the RBJ for the first time a couple weeks ago and totally missed the wreck. sounds to me like we weren't going fast enough.
that wreck diving stuff is tricky
It helps a great deal when the captain is really good at dropping on the RBJ ( it is it's own challenge)...AND, when the Captain has dropped you many times in the past, and can estimate your trajectory and speed well.

Amongst the boats that do drift drops in Palm Beach and Lauderdale, there are a few SUPERSTARS among the Captains---Captains that are FAR Beyond all others in estimating precision Hot drops....

One of the BEST of all time, is Captain Lynn Simmons of Splashdown divers.... She could drop George and me on top of a wheel house the size of a garden shed, in a 4 mph current, 280 feet down...She blew a lot of minds with her skill sets.... And Captain Van Blakeman of Narcosis is another Captain with off-the -charts dropping skills.....
But even with these 2 Captains, they would have to estimate the diver's speed in the drop as they descend, and until you dive with them a bit, this is "hit or miss" :)
 
it certainly wasn't 50 seconds for us to descend. closer to five minutes to the sand. we seemed to be behind the wreck so i guess it points to us being a bit slow
 
A skipper who can't drop the shot into the wreck reliably is a skipper with a very short shelf-life running dive charters.

I take it you don't have many wooden wrecks out your way? Dropping a shot line on wood tends to create holes ... especially if the wreck has been down a while.

Where I live, a skipper who drops a shot line into a wreck isn't very popular with either the other skippers or the divers.

On metal wrecks it's less of an issue ... and on many, where there's current, we'll forego a shot in favor of a grapple.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
We don't have any wooden wrecks at all. Wooden vessels have certainly sunk in the area but they get reduced to nothing by the sea in fairly short order.

A few people I know use what I call a "dumb" shot ie a rope with a big weight on the end. I call it "dumb" because it can tell you nothing about what it is lying on. I've only ever missed the wreck from boats using a dumb shot. Better systems use a grapple and chain. The best use a welded grapple made out of 1/2" mild steel bar and chain. The latter can actually be fairly light, under 10kg, as opposed to dumb shots which are generally 30kg+.

A problem for relatively inexperienced boat owners/divers is failing to understand the difference between shotting a wreck and anchoring and the tendency to use the same gear for both.

Whatever is used it has to be on the wreck because otherwise you'll miss it in our typically 2m visibility and pitch dark. The idea of dropping free onto the wreck just simply wouldn't work here, which illustrates the absurdity of insisting that one technique is applicable everywhere. As I said, when in Rome...
 
Whatever is used it has to be on the wreck because otherwise you'll miss it in our typically 2m visibility and pitch dark. The idea of dropping free onto the wreck just simply wouldn't work here, which illustrates the absurdity of insisting that one technique is applicable everywhere. As I said, when in Rome...

I don't want to argue...and I will only respond this time because I don't think I made one aspect of the drift drop on a wreck clear....
If I am being dropped on the 100 foot deep Castor in mild current, or the 225 foot deep Skycliff in huge current, the issue of whether I have 100 foot vis, or 5 foot vis, will not effect my success or failure in hitting the wreck in 9 out of ten approaches.....in 9 out of ten approaches, all I do is swim down straight to the bottom--there is NO navigating, and there is no necessary familiarity with an "approach path" to the wreck--9 our of ten times...or maybe even 95 out of 100 times....the norm is that I swim to the bottom, and then all of a sudden, the wreck is coming at me....If the current is screaming, the wreck comes at me fast. You are looking for this--expecting this, so if the vis is 5 feet, and the current is screaming, you will probably want to either belly to the bottom out of current, or, get up high enough so that you wont impact into the side of the wreck--so in the low vis conditons, local knowledge would be a value, to avoid a hard impact.
But if one of our Captains had time perfecting drops on this UK wreck you speak of, I don't see the difference between low vis and big or small current here, versus low vis and big or small current where you are in the UK. Beyond current or multiple currents the captain needs to figure vectors for, what else does the captain need to know? For us as divers--we just swim straight down--the shipwreck comes to us. :)
 
We don't have any wooden wrecks at all. Wooden vessels have certainly sunk in the area but they get reduced to nothing by the sea in fairly short order.

A few people I know use what I call a "dumb" shot ie a rope with a big weight on the end. I call it "dumb" because it can tell you nothing about what it is lying on. I've only ever missed the wreck from boats using a dumb shot. Better systems use a grapple and chain. The best use a welded grapple made out of 1/2" mild steel bar and chain. The latter can actually be fairly light, under 10kg, as opposed to dumb shots which are generally 30kg+.

A problem for relatively inexperienced boat owners/divers is failing to understand the difference between shotting a wreck and anchoring and the tendency to use the same gear for both.

Whatever is used it has to be on the wreck because otherwise you'll miss it in our typically 2m visibility and pitch dark. The idea of dropping free onto the wreck just simply wouldn't work here, which illustrates the absurdity of insisting that one technique is applicable everywhere. As I said, when in Rome...

I agree. In low-vis conditions, dropping free onto a wreck often means missing it altogether unless you get lucky. Dropping into a current upstream might work if the wreck is large enough and the current doesn't change directions on the way down ... but around my area, where you're diving an inland sea, the folds and shifts of the bottom usually create currents that don't move in a straight line.

When we refer to a "shot" here, it's usually in reference to a downrigger ball ... anywhere from 5 to 10 kg round lead ball with a poly line attached and a float on the topside end. We typically use them to mark drop sites onto wrecks in places of little to no current, and aim for putting them within easy distance to the wreck, but not directly on it. These are typically used on wrecks in Lake Washington, which is a rather large lake containing some 200 known "targets" ... among them several old wooden minesweepers and a few aircraft, including a couple very large WWII bombers. One does not want to drop a weight onto these, or grapple them, as they are fragile and will damage easily.

Sometimes divers on these more fragile wrecks will opt to use something softer, like a neoprene sleeve filled with lead shot, to minimize damage if they should happen to hit the wreck ... but the objective is usually to put the weight on the bottom somewhere near it and run a reel between the line and wreck.

Grapples are used on larger, steel wrecks ... and even then we tend not to anchor on them, but once the grapple is set we release the line attached to a float. That way the weight of the boat isn't pulling on the superstructure. Divers are offloaded ... sometimes upstream of the float if there's current ... and remain on the surface until they reach the ball, at which point they follow it down.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Dan,
I'll for one retract some of my flame and say that your descent technique is quite refined, but I'll also hazard a guess that its one you've perfected amongst a small cadre of friends and captains over a fairly large number of dives - a significant caveat up front probably would have alleviated some of the angst I'd think.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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