No Buddy for Dive Master ?

[Lead_carrier]

........With students on checkout dives I am not diving solo. The student buddy pair, or the student in the case of a private class, is my buddy. If I did not think my students, including OW students, could not assist me if I had a problem I could not, by my agency and my own standards, take them into open water.

If an instructor feels like he/she is diving solo with their students as regards the student's ability to render assistance how can they issue a cert card? Knowing that the card means those people are now certified to dive without supervision and the assistance of a so-called "dive professional" in the water with them.

But Jim, we're all a bunch of card sellers that are only in it for the money and prestige, or did you miss that post. lol.. I totally agree with you. If I can't trust my students then how can I, with a clear conscience, certify them. On your next checkout dive, signal a student team that you're out of air, you'll usually get some real funny looks before an allernate reg shows up for you.

To the OP, just stick close, but not right on top of, the dm. they know were and how to look for the good stuff.

 

[Tigerman]

Youll get some strange looks regardless when running out of air
Heard on the dive boat when a guide ran out of air 10min into a 30m dive (due partly to malfunction): "I was like... is he taking the piss? Then I saw the gauge and went 'crap, hope this dont put me back on restricted profiles due to my previous dcs event'"

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[Skittl1321]

My experience on drift dives in Cosumel was that people were not really paired together but as a blob loosely followed the guide.

Pretty much.
The DM I dove with was really safety conscious- for new (to her) divers, she would physically go check their gauges for them. Day 2, she would ask many times during the dive, by Day 3 she would only ask nearing when she thought people were getting close to ending. Husband and I did buddy checks, but DM did a 'buddy check' with every person on the boat before they entered the water.

That said, our end of dive procedure was "if you buddy runs out of air before you, find someone else to be your buddy- make some sort of contact so they know you are buddying with them". So that was pretty lax. The group was together though.

Husband and I stopped using that procedure, and just always went up together, when he rebuddied with someone, and then about 2 minutes later realized the guy didn't have an octo at all. So he signaled to come up and join me on the boat. (I always went up when he ran out of air first because I'm a wuss and won't dive without him.)

And I'm sure if the DM had her own issue, she'd just use the closest person to her to help fix the problem, and the whole group would surface.

 

[flots am]

The last comment is very valid, and I wish there were more instructors who thought this way. I do not agree that a student can be relied on to rescue an instructor. I have seen students who are amazing in the pool, yet when they get in open water, they go to pieces.

I've seen that too.

That's when you point to shore and tell the student to not worry about it, go back, change into some nice warm clothes and you'll see him at the next pool session.

flots.

 

[diver 85]

DMs make great buddies.....they know where everything is..........

 

[Skittl1321]

The last comment is very valid, and I wish there were more instructors who thought this way. I do not agree that a student can be relied on to rescue an instructor.

Do many instructors work in OW alone for classes?
Maybe it was because our visibility was SO bad, but we had 2 instructors and 3-4 divemasters for my OW check-out dives. So that might not be the norm- but alone seems kind of crazy, because how do you handle someone who surfaces in panic if the rest of the group doesn't?


DMs are at least working with certified divers.

 

[Tigerman]

...
And I'm sure if the DM had her own issue, she'd just use the closest person to her to help fix the problem, and the whole group would surface.

Not me.. Id do what Ive done before.. verify the status of my buddy, wave the DM byebye and continue the original dive plan...

---------- Post added April 3rd, 2014 at 08:35 PM ----------

...
Maybe it was because our visibility was SO bad, but we had 2 instructors and 3-4 divemasters for my OW check-out dives.
...

You had what??
For my ow checkout I had a buddy also on a chekout, with whom I planned and conducted the dive according to said plan and an instructor heating up the bbq making sure we did just that safely...

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[Skittl1321]

Not me.. Id do what Ive done before.. verify the status of my buddy, wave the DM byebye and continue the original dive plan...

Well, you couldn't do that in Cozumel (where the post I was replying to specifically mentioned) since Marine Park Laws require diving with a DM. So your dive plan would involve surfacing when the DM surfaced anyway- just in this case, you'd hang around and watch to see if they can get themselves out of trouble, or if another diver further away could reach them in time, since you are clearly not interested in assisting. Maybe if you were diving outside of the park you could ditch them. It's scary to me though that you are so callous about human life, that you'd just ignore someone in distress if they weren't your designated buddy.

You had what??
For my ow checkout I had a buddy also on a chekout, with whom I planned and conducted the dive according to said plan and an instructor heating up the bbq making sure we did just that safely...

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My OW checkout required me perform certain skills for an instructor. If the instructor wasn't underwater, they wouldn't have been able to determine if we did the skills. I had a designated buddy for when the instructor wasn't with me specifically, but they were with the group (16 divers, generally we were underwater in groups of 8, or 4 buddy pairs).

Clearly others have an instructor underwater, or else the issue of a student rescuing an instructor wouldn't even exist.
Maybe you used a different agency.

 

[flots am]

Do many instructors work in OW alone for classes?
Maybe it was because our visibility was SO bad, but we had 2 instructors and 3-4 divemasters for my OW check-out dives. So that might not be the norm- but alone seems kind of crazy, because how do you handle someone who surfaces in panic if the rest of the group doesn't?


DMs are at least working with certified divers.

Some instructors have assistants (DMs, etc.) however I wouldn't want to be taking any sort of class from anybody who couldn't safely get from anyplace within OW training limits to the surface, alone.

The same thing goes for the DM. If he can't handle his own emergency, I certainly wouldn't trust him with mine.

 

[boulderjohn]

I don't know the rules for all agencies, but PADI requires an instructor or certified assistant to be in the immediate vicinity of a student at all times when teaching in poor visibility. That includes students on the surface. If you are dealing with more than 2 students at one time, this requires some level of certified assistance. Even if you are only dealing with two students with no assistant, if you are heading to the surface with one of them, as in assessing the CESA, the second will have to swim up next to you as you go.

---------- Post added April 3rd, 2014 at 03:47 PM ----------

In life we have to assess risks and act accordingly. We have to be careful about assuming all risks in a certain activity are created equal.

Let’s take crossing the road as an example. Is it dangerous or not? If you are talking about a busy multi-lane expressway at night, it is suicidal. If you are talking about a dirt farm road in Kansas with no car in sight for 2 miles in either direction, it is as safe as it can possibly be.

Diving solo has a similar spectrum of risks. Diving solo at 100 feet inside a cave requires a great number of practiced skills and precautions because of the circumstances. Practicing skills in a shallow public swimming pool with a lifeguard on the stand is pretty safe, and I don’t think any of the normal solo diving precautions are needed.

A dive master leading a group or an instructor leading a class falls falls pretty far on the safe side of the spectrum of solo diving, and some would argue that it isn't even really solo diving. I don’t feel it is a significant risk, and the agencies that establish the protocols for those dives have determined that they can be safely conducted that way. Of course it is possible that something can happen, but the potential is very, very low. It is a risk that I, for one, will continue to take without giving it a second thought.