OW Class at Beach Cities Scuba

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Trust me when I say that you will not be capable of doing your skills while in a hover as an open water student.

I have my students practice mask and regulator skills while kneeling. By the end of your confined water classes you must be able to hover a little bit. By the end of your open water training dives, a little bit more. After about 20-30 dives most divers can hover okay but not great. That doesn't mean that you'll be bouncing off the ground though.

If your Instructor takes the time for your class and really works on your buoyancy, proper weighting and trim, then you'll be able to hold a good hover during your open water training dives.

I strongly disagree. RAID has as a requirement that all skills are to be conducted neutral in the hover by the end of CW training. None of my students ever do any skills touching anything. There is an option to allow kneeling for the first run through purely to allow them to get the mechanics of the skill, but so far I haven't had to use that.

AFAIK @boulderjohn and @Diver0001 (amongst others) also have the skills conducted neutral, in the case of PADI it is not a required standard but they teach it that way anyway.

EDIT: This clip is my last OW course, ten minutes into OW dive 1. Still hand sculling going on but by OW 4 that was gone. Their buoyancy was better in CW. (nerves I think)
Dropbox - DSCF7038.MOV
 
Yes I will be posting the rest of the story. Sorry about the delay but between work and all the information I find here, I got sidetracked. I will work on finishing this over the weekend if all goes well since I won't be diving. :mad:
Good read thanks for posting. I know how you feel I am getting ready to attempt the tec 40 course hopefully by summer and have been going over the material and is daunting. But it is something I want to do so it is worth ot. After that maybe tec 45 and then 50.
 
I strongly disagree. RAID has as a requirement that all skills are to be conducted neutral in the hover by the end of CW training. None of my students ever do any skills touching anything. There is an option to allow kneeling for the first run through purely to allow them to get the mechanics of the skill, but so far I haven't had to use that.

AFAIK @boulderjohn and @Diver0001 (amongst others) also have the skills conducted neutral, in the case of PADI it is not a required standard but they teach it that way anyway.

If more instructors taught to this standard, I believe we'd have more divers in our "sport". When I was living in Cozumel and diving a lot, I came across a fair number of new divers that were certified, that shouldn't have been, IMO. Many of these 'certified' divers enjoyed their time bouncing along the reef.. And many more got through it with difficulty and were too busy feeling scared / out-of-whack to enjoy it, and probably never dove again.

I have a lot of respect for OW instructors who aren't just grazing the standards and want to turn out competent divers.. I know money and time are factors but turning out a new diver who is comfortable and capable likely benefits everyone.
 
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Sorry for the long delay between posts but let's pick up where I left you last; at the gate and about ready to splash for the first time in my life.

Let me go back and talk about what I had on for gear that day. I was using a 7 mil Scubapro "rental" wetsuit that was part of the student gear to use for the dives. They also offered a hood but I did not like how if felt so I dove without it. I had my BCD, regulator and dive computer. My gloves were and still are 5 mil thick (which I will bring up later) I was diving an AL80 and had 24 lbs. of lead plus 1 1/2 ankle weights (3 lbs additional) 16 lbs were on the removable weight pouches and the other 8 were in the trim pouches. The air temp was 61F and temp at depth was 57F.

I step out to the gate and don my fins, look out to the horizon, after checking below me of course, and took my first Giant Stride. I hit the water and my first thought was damn is this water cold. I make sure I am positively buoyant, spin towards the boat and give the ok sign to the DM.

The plan was for all three of us to get in the water and follow the swim line to the anchor line off the bow. We were to hold onto the line and wait until our instructor met all three of us there. Once there we would all descend holding the line and meet on the sandy bottom.

I was in the water and Jed (my instructor) came over, checked to see if I was OK, gave me some tips on how to prevent being pushed face first in the water by my back inflate BC and once I was comfortable, he had me make my way down the swim line to the mooring line and wait. It was myself and one other student, a male who went down the swim line together. Our third, a woman who seemed a bit nervous prior to even boarding the boat, was just slashing so we were to wait and hang onto the line.

I will backtrack a second here and tell you that this lady found out I wanted to eventually be an instructor and kept saying she was sticking close to me and that she wasn't letting me out of her sight. As if my nerves weren't already wrecked now I had someone who mistakenly thought I was the person to look to to keep her safe. This alone raised my stress level and then went putting her kit together, she needed me to show her how to attach the first stage to the tank. She had tried and had the regulator on the wrong side and the tank turned 180 degrees. All of this put together and I was a bit more worried than I feel I should have been on my first dive.

Well as we wait I take the time to swap out my snorkel for my reg and take a look under me to see what is happening. Ummm, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, there is life down there!!! It may sound weird as we all know there are creatures that live in the oceans but to take that first look under the surface while using a reg and seeing fish under you hanging out and doing what fish do on a weekend morning. I was later told they were kelp bass that we saw. I was excited and practically peed the shop wetsuit and couldn't wait to see more.

Then Jed arrives at with the other student and she was struggling. Jed was calming her, telling her it was OK and that he was right there with her. She grabs onto the line and I take my reg out and smile at her hoping it would help to calm her. At this time I wasn't sure why she was so nervous but it was very easy to tell she was not feeling comfortable. Her eyes had widened and were darting around all over the place. Jed decided that he was going to take her down to the bottom first and once we saw them start to descend, we were to follow along keeping an eye on each other and on them below us. Not a problem as the viz was about 10-15' and we were only going to hit, at the deepest, 40 fsw. Just hold onto the line and follow it down to a nice sandy bottom.

As they start to descend I again swap out my snorkel for my reg and start to look under but didn't have the chance as they popped right back up. she spit out her reg and was latched onto the line with a death grip. Jed talks to her in a very soothing voice and his relaxed demeanor could make many scared divers feel very comfortable. She calmed a bit and he asked what was wrong. She said it was very cold, the hood was leaking and the cold water took her breath away. Jed checked her hood and seemed to feel it fit well and wasn't torn. He told her they were in no rush and both myself and the other student agreed. We would wait all day if we had to so she was comfortable. After all that is the spirit of diving IMO...keeping each other safe while also keeping our oceans safe.

She decided to try one more time and her head never went all the way under this time. JEd must have seen this before and knew he shouldn't try again so he told us to hang tight, literally, and he would take her back to the boat. He met another instructor half way and they got her back in the boat. Now it was time to finally get down and explore and test out how well I knew my skills.

We all descend and hit the bottom. I am wide eyed but not from fear, I am amazed at what I am seeing. This world I have dreamt about was right on front of me..I was out where few humans go, seeing what most never even think about and I fell in love!

There was no time for fun and further looking around as we had work to do. Part of that work was just getting down to the bottom as we did a weight check at the surface and then using the line to descend was our controlled descent. So we find a nice sandy spot away from the anchor and begin drill one which was the fin pivot. It goes ok I suppose. I felt like I had to put more air in than I should but what do I know as this is my first ever OW dive. We both nail it and move on to partial mask flood and clear.

This was a skill I felt very confident doing when we were in the pool and felt the exact same at 37 fsw. I waited while the other guy did his skill and watched to see if I could pick out any errors he made in hopes I wouldn't make them. Nope, he gets a high five and now it is my turn. I break the seal on my mask and that cold saltwater flows in just up to the bottom of my eyes. I remove my hand so he could see but with the mask I use I am certain he couldn't see at all. But I then cleared and gave him the OK. Next was regulator recovery and clear which for me went very smoothly. I pulled it out, let it drop and kept blowing tiny bubbles (Don Ho?) , did the arm sweep to recover, cleared and gave the OK. The other guy wasn't as smooth as he struggled to do the arm sweep and find his reg but to his credit he never freaked out. He kept calm, found it and cleared. All was good which meant now we got to go explore per our pre-dive meeting. Jed was going to lead us on a little reef exploration which was amazing. Little fish, medium fish...it was beautiful and peaceful..so very very peaceful. As we explored Jed showed us a few cool things and we had to keep giving him our air supply. He was going to ask us twice where we were to look and then give him our reading. The third time he was going to ask and we were guess, give him that guess and then look at our SPG and give him the real reading. He said ideally he would like to see us be within 100 psi. This is where I realized I was one of those people I had read so much about on this site..I was the dreaded air hog. I was at 1100 when the other student was 2000.

We were to be down at least 20 minutes per PADI standards. I was the reason the dive was called due to being the lowest on air...and when I hit 1000 psi..I became a cork. Before I even knew what was happening I was so shallow my DC did't register a depth. This is a problem that still exists with me today at 5 dives but I am working on it. One thing I really want to do is to start diving HP120s rather than AL80s The extra air would be good for me and my buddy plus it would help to eliminate that change in buoyancy with the aluminum tanks.

All three of us hit the surface and practice cramp removal, snorkel/regulator exchange and SMB deployment prior to heading back to the boat. Total dive time was 23 minutes with max depth of 40 fsw.

Once on the boat I swap out my tanks and test out the gear for dive two and then get some snacks in me. I learned I have a hard time finding my spg and doing much of anything that causes me to feel with those 5 mil gloves. I was a little cold but overall I wasn't cold enough to cancel the dive. I hated the ankle weights which if you remember I bought because I couldn't keep my feet from floating up in the pool. Walking on the boat with them sucked, they annoyed me and well...I hate them. But as we pull anchor and head to the next spot for dive 2, I think to what I just did out there in ocean. That I went 40 feet below the surface and was hanging out on the ocean floor, watching life happen around me astonishes me. I knew I would love this but at the same time I had no idea I would be hit with this overwhelming desire to see ALL the ocean! I just saw a small piece of local ocean and it was like I won the lottery. What else lies out there for me to explore and discover?

Who cares about skills...I need to get back down there now!!! Come on skipper, full speed ahead so I can tell everyone about dive two which was similar to this dive but far different than dives 3 and 4 which will be coming soon.
 
Sorry for the long delay between posts but let's pick up where I left you last; at the gate and about ready to splash for the first time in my life.

Let me go back and talk about what I had on for gear that day. I was using a 7 mil Scubapro "rental" wetsuit that was part of the student gear to use for the dives. They also offered a hood but I did not like how if felt so I dove without it. I had my BCD, regulator and dive computer. My gloves were and still are 5 mil thick (which I will bring up later) I was diving an AL80 and had 24 lbs. of lead plus 1 1/2 ankle weights (3 lbs additional) 16 lbs were on the removable weight pouches and the other 8 were in the trim pouches. The air temp was 61F and temp at depth was 57F.

I step out to the gate and don my fins, look out to the horizon, after checking below me of course, and took my first Giant Stride. I hit the water and my first thought was damn is this water cold. I make sure I am positively buoyant, spin towards the boat and give the ok sign to the DM.

The plan was for all three of us to get in the water and follow the swim line to the anchor line off the bow. We were to hold onto the line and wait until our instructor met all three of us there. Once there we would all descend holding the line and meet on the sandy bottom.

I was in the water and Jed (my instructor) came over, checked to see if I was OK, gave me some tips on how to prevent being pushed face first in the water by my back inflate BC and once I was comfortable, he had me make my way down the swim line to the mooring line and wait. It was myself and one other student, a male who went down the swim line together. Our third, a woman who seemed a bit nervous prior to even boarding the boat, was just slashing so we were to wait and hang onto the line.

I will backtrack a second here and tell you that this lady found out I wanted to eventually be an instructor and kept saying she was sticking close to me and that she wasn't letting me out of her sight. As if my nerves weren't already wrecked now I had someone who mistakenly thought I was the person to look to to keep her safe. This alone raised my stress level and then went putting her kit together, she needed me to show her how to attach the first stage to the tank. She had tried and had the regulator on the wrong side and the tank turned 180 degrees. All of this put together and I was a bit more worried than I feel I should have been on my first dive.

Well as we wait I take the time to swap out my snorkel for my reg and take a look under me to see what is happening. Ummm, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, there is life down there!!! It may sound weird as we all know there are creatures that live in the oceans but to take that first look under the surface while using a reg and seeing fish under you hanging out and doing what fish do on a weekend morning. I was later told they were kelp bass that we saw. I was excited and practically peed the shop wetsuit and couldn't wait to see more.

Then Jed arrives at with the other student and she was struggling. Jed was calming her, telling her it was OK and that he was right there with her. She grabs onto the line and I take my reg out and smile at her hoping it would help to calm her. At this time I wasn't sure why she was so nervous but it was very easy to tell she was not feeling comfortable. Her eyes had widened and were darting around all over the place. Jed decided that he was going to take her down to the bottom first and once we saw them start to descend, we were to follow along keeping an eye on each other and on them below us. Not a problem as the viz was about 10-15' and we were only going to hit, at the deepest, 40 fsw. Just hold onto the line and follow it down to a nice sandy bottom.

As they start to descend I again swap out my snorkel for my reg and start to look under but didn't have the chance as they popped right back up. she spit out her reg and was latched onto the line with a death grip. Jed talks to her in a very soothing voice and his relaxed demeanor could make many scared divers feel very comfortable. She calmed a bit and he asked what was wrong. She said it was very cold, the hood was leaking and the cold water took her breath away. Jed checked her hood and seemed to feel it fit well and wasn't torn. He told her they were in no rush and both myself and the other student agreed. We would wait all day if we had to so she was comfortable. After all that is the spirit of diving IMO...keeping each other safe while also keeping our oceans safe.

She decided to try one more time and her head never went all the way under this time. JEd must have seen this before and knew he shouldn't try again so he told us to hang tight, literally, and he would take her back to the boat. He met another instructor half way and they got her back in the boat. Now it was time to finally get down and explore and test out how well I knew my skills.

We all descend and hit the bottom. I am wide eyed but not from fear, I am amazed at what I am seeing. This world I have dreamt about was right on front of me..I was out where few humans go, seeing what most never even think about and I fell in love!

There was no time for fun and further looking around as we had work to do. Part of that work was just getting down to the bottom as we did a weight check at the surface and then using the line to descend was our controlled descent. So we find a nice sandy spot away from the anchor and begin drill one which was the fin pivot. It goes ok I suppose. I felt like I had to put more air in than I should but what do I know as this is my first ever OW dive. We both nail it and move on to partial mask flood and clear.

This was a skill I felt very confident doing when we were in the pool and felt the exact same at 37 fsw. I waited while the other guy did his skill and watched to see if I could pick out any errors he made in hopes I wouldn't make them. Nope, he gets a high five and now it is my turn. I break the seal on my mask and that cold saltwater flows in just up to the bottom of my eyes. I remove my hand so he could see but with the mask I use I am certain he couldn't see at all. But I then cleared and gave him the OK. Next was regulator recovery and clear which for me went very smoothly. I pulled it out, let it drop and kept blowing tiny bubbles (Don Ho?) , did the arm sweep to recover, cleared and gave the OK. The other guy wasn't as smooth as he struggled to do the arm sweep and find his reg but to his credit he never freaked out. He kept calm, found it and cleared. All was good which meant now we got to go explore per our pre-dive meeting. Jed was going to lead us on a little reef exploration which was amazing. Little fish, medium fish...it was beautiful and peaceful..so very very peaceful. As we explored Jed showed us a few cool things and we had to keep giving him our air supply. He was going to ask us twice where we were to look and then give him our reading. The third time he was going to ask and we were guess, give him that guess and then look at our SPG and give him the real reading. He said ideally he would like to see us be within 100 psi. This is where I realized I was one of those people I had read so much about on this site..I was the dreaded air hog. I was at 1100 when the other student was 2000.

We were to be down at least 20 minutes per PADI standards. I was the reason the dive was called due to being the lowest on air...and when I hit 1000 psi..I became a cork. Before I even knew what was happening I was so shallow my DC did't register a depth. This is a problem that still exists with me today at 5 dives but I am working on it. One thing I really want to do is to start diving HP120s rather than AL80s The extra air would be good for me and my buddy plus it would help to eliminate that change in buoyancy with the aluminum tanks.

All three of us hit the surface and practice cramp removal, snorkel/regulator exchange and SMB deployment prior to heading back to the boat. Total dive time was 23 minutes with max depth of 40 fsw.

Once on the boat I swap out my tanks and test out the gear for dive two and then get some snacks in me. I learned I have a hard time finding my spg and doing much of anything that causes me to feel with those 5 mil gloves. I was a little cold but overall I wasn't cold enough to cancel the dive. I hated the ankle weights which if you remember I bought because I couldn't keep my feet from floating up in the pool. Walking on the boat with them sucked, they annoyed me and well...I hate them. But as we pull anchor and head to the next spot for dive 2, I think to what I just did out there in ocean. That I went 40 feet below the surface and was hanging out on the ocean floor, watching life happen around me astonishes me. I knew I would love this but at the same time I had no idea I would be hit with this overwhelming desire to see ALL the ocean! I just saw a small piece of local ocean and it was like I won the lottery. What else lies out there for me to explore and discover?

Who cares about skills...I need to get back down there now!!! Come on skipper, full speed ahead so I can tell everyone about dive two which was similar to this dive but far different than dives 3 and 4 which will be coming soon.
You can also try a steel 80. I have used them and they are good.
 
We were to be down at least 20 minutes per PADI standards. I was the reason the dive was called due to being the lowest on air...and when I hit 1000 psi..I became a cork. Before I even knew what was happening I was so shallow my DC did't register a depth. This is a problem that still exists with me today at 5 dives but I am working on it. One thing I really want to do is to start diving HP120s rather than AL80s The extra air would be good for me and my buddy plus it would help to eliminate that change in buoyancy with the aluminum tanks.

Looking back in this thread I see you were diving with the same amount of weight you used in the pool, which I assume was fresh water. Assuming you were properly weighted for the pool, you would be underweighted in ocean, which would show up at the end of the dive. You need to add a 2.5% of your total weight (body + gear + weights) when moving from fresh to salt water. I'm going to assume you didn't adjust your weight when you added the ankle weights. So assuming you weigh 180, your kit was 40 and you needed 24 pounds of weight (not counting the ankle weights), you would add 2.5% of 244, which would be about 6 pounds. The ankle weights would be 3 pounds of that. This would explain why you were fine at the beginning of the dive (an AL80 has about 6 pounds of air in it - air weights .75 lbs/10 cf). As you got shallow with a nearly empty tank, and your 7 mil wetsuit expanding you would be unable to maintain a safety stop.

Next time you dive do weight check at the beginning of the dive, floating at eye level holding a normal breath. Then add another 5-6 pounds to account for the air in the tank.

Changing tanks is not going to help your buoyancy.
 
Looking back in this thread I see you were diving with the same amount of weight you used in the pool, which I assume was fresh water. Assuming you were properly weighted for the pool, you would be underweighted in ocean, which would show up at the end of the dive. You need to add a 2.5% of your total weight (body + gear + weights) when moving from fresh to salt water. I'm going to assume you didn't adjust your weight when you added the ankle weights. So assuming you weigh 180, your kit was 40 and you needed 24 pounds of weight (not counting the ankle weights), you would add 2.5% of 244, which would be about 6 pounds. The ankle weights would be 3 pounds of that. This would explain why you were fine at the beginning of the dive (an AL80 has about 6 pounds of air in it - air weights .75 lbs/10 cf). As you got shallow with a nearly empty tank, and your 7 mil wetsuit expanding you would be unable to maintain a safety stop.

Next time you dive do weight check at the beginning of the dive, floating at eye level holding a normal breath. Then add another 5-6 pounds to account for the air in the tank.

Changing tanks is not going to help your buoyancy.

The topic of weight will continue as I post my experiences with dives 3 and 4 so I will not comment quite yet however I will say that we did a weight check at the surface and while wearing 24 lbs and 3 total pounds of ankle weights (the dumbest things ever) I did float at "eye level" while holding a normal breath. Now what one considers eye level could become a thread in and of itself and I am sure everyone judges this differently.

Thank you for the reply and information and hopefully this weight issue will get sorted out. As for changing from a Al to a steel tank...you say it won't change my buoyancy but I don't see how it could not as the steel tank is heavier and does not become buoyant like an AL does so when LOA or at that magic 1000 psi hits, a steel tank will not cause positive buoyancy issues or at least this is how I have come to understand it.

If I am wrong in my understanding please let me know as I am open to learning as much as I can.
 
The buoyancy swing is purely gas weight. With steel tanks you in effect are wearing some weight as tanks so less lead required but the change during the dive will be the same.
 

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