Oxycheq Vertex vs Halcyon Evolve vs DSS Torus

[cool_hardware52]

I have previously tried an AL plate with the double AL80s and remained overweighted. The wing I used with the AL plate was not yours. Are you saying that your wing works with some plates and not with others?

Your primary complaint is that you are head down using a Torus 45 wing.

You have also repeatedly stated that you are already overweighted, and therefore cannot use a tail weight. I would agree, adding to an already overweighted condition is not a good idea.

Removing 6 lbs located high on your body (the 6 lbs SS plate you stated you used with the Torus Wing) and replacing it with a lightweight plate should have two effects; redue your overweighting, and reduce the mass located high on your body.

This was exactly my suggestion. You claim, without having tried it, that a Lightweight plate and a Torus wing still would not help either your overweighted condition, or have any effect on your head down trim. I find this assertation remarkable.

Additionally lets assume you are properly weighted with a SS plate for the dives you are doing. If you switched to a lightweight plate you could easily add a tail weight and have your total weighting remain the same. Taking 5 lbs off your torso, an adding 5 lbs. in a tailweight will have a pronounced effect. I know, I've done it.

If you have a wing / plate / exposure suit / tank combo that offers perfect trim "out of the box" for your application, bravo, use it.

There are many variables in achieving perfect trim. Body type, exposure suit, total weighting requirements, plate type, tanks, manifolds, tank bands, weight of your regs, type of hood, type of fins, the list goes on.

No wing will be perfect out of the box for every circumstance.

Where I begin when designing a wing is first capacity. That sets the required volume of gas. Then I look at shape. There are a number of considerations. Too long a wing makes it subject to damage with shorter tanks. Too much volume in the top arc of the wing can imped valve access, and will effect it's behavior at the surface. I often choose to bias wings for more lift low on the diver than up high. Why? Three reasons; Divers tend to add mass in weight belts, if required. Head down is easier to adjust for than head up. Being slightly head down is preferred to being slightly heads up. Our Torus 35 single wing is a good example, biased at the base for added lift for those using weight belts. This has proven very popular.


I will point out that I have sold many, many more tail weight pouches, http://www.deepseasupply.com/page24.html
than doubles wings of all designs. Head down trim is not an unusual condition in doubles, with our wings, and apparently with many others.


Tobin

 

[PerroneFord]

Tobin,

While I own one of your wings, and one of your weight pouches, I would DEARLY love to see you produce a wing for doubles without the weight bias at the bottom. I would hazard a guess that a wing that was neutral in terms of fore and aft lift, would be a VERY welcome addition for technical divers. In fact, I'd prefer to see just a bit of front bias. The reasons are:

1. Carrying stages/deco bottles tend to shift more weight toward the head as this is where the valves are.

2. If carrying aluminum bottles, they will tend to be butt light near the end of the dive, thus further increasing the "head heavy" condition

3. Technical divers are often overweighted to start with and a great many that I am around do not use a weightbelt at all.

So the shape of the Torus 45 is the exact opposite of what I need in most scenarios. For me, the LP95 makes me slightly head heavy. I can easily compensate with my legs. When used with the DR Classic, Its an easy problem. When used with my Torus 45, it requires constant skulling to remain balanced, even with my legs fully extended. I fear when I add a drysuit, if I get even a BIT head down, and force air into my legs, I will topple over.

A set of 121s will be long enough to override the condtion of me being head heavy, but I am REALLY not looking forward to dealing with carrying 100# of raw tanks on my back. Plus a stage and deco. So the 108s will likely be my choice of tank. For me, they work beautifully. The Torus 45 worked nicely with them in the pool. But I know as soon as I add a couple of slung bottles, it's going to require a tailweight. Perhaps as much as 5#.

The shape of the Evolve wings seems to be far better suited to carrying steels tanks with no weightbelt. Ditto for the DR Classic which is nearly ideal for carryong 104s/108s.

Again, these are just my thoughts after diving your wing, your tailweight pouch, and the DR Classic with 80s, 95s, 104s, and 108s.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin,

While I own one of your wings, and one of your weight pouches, I would DEARLY love to see you produce a wing for doubles without the weight bias at the bottom.

The shape of the Torus wing is not a radical departure from many others currently sold, For a given capacity there isn't a huge range of options......

1. Carrying stages/deco bottles tend to shift more weight toward the head as this is where the valves are.

A rigged Al 40, full, is about 2 lbs negative, the center of this mass is about 1/2 way down your chest. With an 80 the center of mass will be even closer to your waist.

2. If carrying aluminum bottles, they will tend to be butt light near the end of the dive, thus further increasing the "head heavy" condition

Why? At the end of the dive you will have less gas in your wing, often much less. How can an almost empty wing put you head down?

3. Technical divers are often overweighted to start with and a great many that I am around do not use a weightbelt at all.

In warm (fresh) water perhaps.

Thanks again for your comments,


Tobin