Pony Bottle & octopus

[ReefHound]

Clayjar, can you expound on that? Please clarify what are you trying to say.

 

[ClayJar]

ClayJar, can you expound on that? Please clarify what are you trying to say.

Hehe, if you think *that's* anything, you should see some of my long posts.

 

[Steve50]

Hehe, if you think *that's* anything, you should see some of my long posts.

I sense a novel in your future

 

[ams511]

Hehe, if you think *that's* anything, you should see some of my long posts.

They get longer? :11:

 

[ClayJar]

They get longer? :11:

...

 

[ams511]

Yes, I certainly see that he is having significant difficulty understanding my reasoning. Hopefully, it will become more clear through this (two-part) post.

Thank you for your time in providing such a long and detailed post. However, it easy to get lost in the details and not see the big picture. The OP's question was do you need an octo with a pony. Your position is yes because you need the octo to airshare with your buddy in order to preserve the air in the pony bottle to allow a safe second dive. My position is no because of the added failure point and recommend if the second dive is important to purchase an additional pony tank or use a larger one.

I tried to cut and past from your original post but it is too tedious for me. So I will try to touch the main points of your posts that stick in my mind.

I agree with you the a failure on a second stage will either cause either one of 2 problems: 1) No Air or 2) Free flow. If you have a second that does not deliver air and you hand it off to an OOA diver you have two failures: the OOA emergency and the malfunctioning regulator. If you have a reg that free flows that is not a problem either as long as you catch it in time. From time to time we hear stories about people who loose all their air to free flows. I do not know if it is an urban myth or not but it could be true. You cannot judge other peoples skills or care on your own. You have over a 1,000 dives I am not sure what the op has. The other problem is if your pony free flows with the gas shut off. It will deplete the pressure in the line and may allow salt water into the first stage. You may not notice it because you may be distracted by the same situation which caused the pony to free flow, namely a strong current or surge.

About the cost of the pony vs. the second. I understand your point that you already have an octo. However this is irrelevant to the OP's question. He may not want to buy another first and second but rather take advantage of Larry's $50 or Laura's $60 first stage deals. Given your strong preference to always dive with a pony, I still believe you are better served with another pony rather than an additional second stage. Ebay the extra second and buy another pony.

About the doubles. It was a joke but as we both know there is a vocal group of divers on SB that firmly believe if you need a pony you should be diving doubles. I think neither of us agree with that so let's drop the subject.

You mentioned the superiority of DIN valves. So I just wondered about why your back gas valves are not DIN also.

In your contrived example I am not sure what you mean about finding the exit. It this a quarry or a cave/cavern/overhead environment (like a sunk school bus). I agree in such a situation every little bit of air helps but it really is not a good example. Is 19CF enough time for you for your buddy to surface and signal other divers to come to your aid? Forget about him swimming to shore going to the car and picking up extra tanks, that would take too long at the quarries I have been to. Also in such a situation I would not trust a stranger to hand off fresh tanks.

This logic I understand you should have mentioned it rather than the second dive story that is a stretch.

I have never been diving that far north in the gulf. I did not know about the currents and viz. I am thinking maybe 0-5 kt on the current and 20-60 on the viz. I am worried about buddy seperation and that you may not be able to access you buddies back gas or he may be too far away. Not that you are a newbie but hey you get caught in a current and drift out of sight. This can happen quite easily to photographers and spearfisherman.

Slinging a pony is fine, no arguments from me. I did not catch in your prior posts what your rig was. I understand that over 19CF is a pain to travel with and dive shops in some locations do not rent ponies (unless it is a tech shop). However, if you have an extra 80 on the boat you can sling if you use up your pony on the first dive, I really do not see the need to to go to back gas.

So I guess in closing we have two different divers disagreeing about the need for a third second stage on a pony. Such is the world known as Scubaboard.

Dive safe Clay

 

[ClayJar]

Given your strong preference to always dive with a pony, I still believe you are better served with another pony rather than an additional second stage. Ebay the extra second and buy another pony.

You may as well stop telling me I'd be better served by getting rid of one or more of my second stages, lest I explain in excruciating detail several of the reasons I use them. (Just so you don't assume I'm just saying that, I'll note that one is currently on a 25' long hose.)

Of course, I would not be opposed to the prospect of having an additional pony (or tank, if available -- if you use the pony, sling the spare 80...).

In your contrived example I am not sure what you mean about finding the exit. It this a quarry or a cave/cavern/overhead environment (like a sunk school bus).

I was thinking of one of our typical quarries, Blue Water in Pelham, AL. Much of the dive there is spent around 80-85', and it is part of our plan to make stops on ascent (stops which are included in our gas planning, of course). A free ascent is certainly possibly, however, we find it much easier to hold stops with a reference (although mid-water stops are indeed something we practice), and so, we follow the contour of the sides when ascending. The exiting to which I was referring, then, was not so much a function of an overhead as a customary practice given the conditions and topography.

This logic I understand you should have mentioned it rather than the second dive story that is a stretch.

To me, both follow from the same concept; I chose what I perceived to be the simpler case to mention. It is now plain that what I perceive as two facets of the same stone are addressed by others as distinct and separate, for which reason I attempted to cover all details factoring into my reasoning (so as to allow the details to be grouped and addressed in manners other than my own).

I have never been diving that far north in the gulf. I did not know about the currents and viz. I am thinking maybe 0-5 kt on the current and 20-60 on the viz. I am worried about buddy seperation and that you may not be able to access you buddies back gas or he may be too far away. Not that you are a newbie but hey you get caught in a current and drift out of sight. This can happen quite easily to photographers and spearfisherman.

On our "local" sites, we have minimal currents. I have seen viz from practically tropical (you could make out the entire 85'-deep wreck from the surface -- "let's start the dive toward that bit, then go check out that light spot about 15' off the bow..." before hitting the water) all the way to probably 8' (less under that big school of fish).

Buddy separation has never been an issue for us (as in, we've never become separated on a dive -- we simply reduce our separation to match the conditions, as good buddies are supposed to do). Of course, we are not spearfishers, and I only do serious photography (as opposed to snapshots and "home movie" video) while soloing -- detail work and being a good buddy just don't mesh in my evaluations, so when I'm a buddy, I'm a buddy first and foremost. Anyway, without strong currents or something else forcibly separating us, it just doesn't happen. Still, we have standard buddy separation procedures, just in case. If I ever do get separated and my gear chooses that moment to invoke the wrath of Murphy, I'll go to the pony without hesitation, just as I would on a planned solo dive. (The buddy who was forcibly separated from me can follow whatever procedures they have in place for any situations that come up for them, and I'd hope the best for them, but at that point, they'd be out of my hands.)

However, if you have an extra 80 on the boat you can sling if you use up your pony on the first dive, I really do not see the need to to go to back gas.

One part of the way I look at it (and perhaps the most relevant?) is that I want to keep the pony available as long as possible, as it is air I can easily leave behind. If you're looking at possibilities (however remote), there are certainly times when leaving gas behind you could be helpful. (Perhaps we're sharing air at a safety stop after having had a failure at depth, and as we're about to ascend, a diver low on air and well into deco shows up. I could clip the pony off to him to give him enough air for us to get help and air to him.) Are they likely? No, but if the only down side is having whatever additional chance of failure an additional second stage will bring, I'm perfectly willing to accept that in order to have the capability to handle even the rather unlikely situations.

So I guess in closing we have two different divers disagreeing about the need for a third second stage on a pony. Such is the world known as Scubaboard.

It's all really just a matter of philosophy, isn't it? To you, decreasing the overall chance of a failure by eliminating the second stage is seen as beneficial, as you will be less likely to require an air share, and whatever air shares come up can be handled by the pony. I, on the other hand, very strongly weigh the worst-case scenarios. I am willing to accept whatever increased chance of failure an additional second may add, as I consider the additional layer of redundancy in the case of a multiple failure (even one involving circumstances outside of my buddy team) to be more valuable than any dive that may be lost should the additional second malfunction. (The second malfunctioning would be an inconvenience and would certainly thumb the dive, but I would not consider that an emergency.)

One might say that you concentrate primarily on eliminating failures, while I concentrate primarily on managing them.


Dive long, and prosper.