Question about pony bottles

[T.C.]

Wow, I think that would be very difficult to do. The diver would really have to be distracted to not notice that the hose is coming from the wrong side, and from below, instead of from the right and over the shoulder.

The fact that the pony reg should be attached to the tank, means even in a hurry the diver should notice that he's unstowing a reg. You don't unstow a reg on the left side of your gear and think it's a primary reg. Then, you still have the fact that the hose is coming from the wrong side and below.

I would be interested in reading the accident reports detailing the dead diver with a empty pony and full tank, do you know where I can find it?

Lastly, in my opinion, 6 cu ft is too small for an emergency supply. That panicked diver will be sucking down air, probably at a rate of 1 cu ft/min or faster. At that rate, on the surface, that 6 cu ft tank will last 6 minutes. At 90 feet, it will last a little over 1 minute. 19 cu ft is a very common size, and was a good choice.

While a pony takes practice, and I don't think it replaces an octo, the odds are it won't try to kill you or be dangerous. I've had one for three years and I haven't tried to use it as a primary yet. Practice with it, train with it, and you'll be fine.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Who says the pony comes from the left side? I don't rig like that. Do you use a pony bottle? Do you have a lot of time diving with one? You make a lot of assumptions and statements about what kind of errors would be "too stupid to make"... while we all know many, many situations where divers jump into the ocean with their tank valve off. Certainly that is harder to do than get confused with regs..

 

[rhuntley]

That video seems like a great learning experience, Dumpster. I hope everything was taken in that way, at least.

 

[rx7diver]

OP, I personally wholeheartedly endorse the idea of divers working toward becoming totally self-reliant. I don't believe self-reliance necessarily implies adopting a pony bottle, however.

Moreover, a significant change in your gear can significantly impact how you were taught to respond to scuba emergencies. For example, during my open water course, we trained thoroughly on how to surface an incapacitated diver from depth. Adding a pony bottle to either the rescuer's gear, or the incapacitated diver's gear, or both, causes the emergency response we drilled on, to be altered significantly.

I respectfully recommend practicing and perfecting the fundamentals that you were taught in your open water class, and keeping your dives relatively shallow (if this is possible where you and your 14 year-old son dive) for the time being.

Safe Diving,

rx7diver

 

[doctormike]

Lastly, in my opinion, 6 cu ft is too small for an emergency supply. That panicked diver will be sucking down air, probably at a rate of 1 cu ft/min or faster. At that rate, on the surface, that 6 cu ft tank will last 6 minutes. At 90 feet, it will last a little over 1 minute. 19 cu ft is a very common size, and was a good choice.

Absolutely, and I would go further and say that if you are going to sling a pony, you should sling a 30 or a 40. I say this because despite what is commonly assumed, I find no difference in terms of trim, handling or or buoyancy between slinging a 19, a 30 or a 40 underwater (and I carry a huge DSLR rig with dual strobes, etc..). Yeah, if you are diving on a Caribbean reef at 20 feet a 30 is overkill, but we really aren't talking about CESA depths here.

In lots of these discussions about emergency procedures, people are very specific about their assumed proficiency and skills when calculating how much gas to bring, what sort of backup second stage to use, etc... I hear a lot of claims about how they have practiced and know that they need X amount of gas for this ascent, or will follow Y procedure to share air, etc. Sure, planning is good, but you should plan to completely fall apart and act like a total newbie in the event of a real emergency, and then make your backup plan as simple as possible with as much buffer as is reasonable.

In this situation, that means carrying enough gas in your redundant supply, so when it actually happens that you blow out an LP hose and your 3000 PSI in your aluminum is gone in 80 seconds, you should anticipate taking MUCH longer to figure out what to do, sucking MUCH more air while you get yourself oriented, and then being able to do a slow, safe ascent with a safety stop. You should also plan to have lost your buddy, since that is very easy to do. Every diver should be self reliant (solo certified or not) IMHO.

And as far as back mounting your pony, I have to say I don't understand the appeal of that at all. I guess it's personal preference, but it seems to me that you want your emergency gas right there where you can see the valve and the reg. Again, I'm sure that people who dive with that configuration are very confident in their ability to deploy their bungeed reg or the whole tank in an emergency, but the same point that I made above applies to this as well...

 

[T.C.]

Who says the pony comes from the left side? I don't rig like that. Do you use a pony bottle? Do you have a lot of time diving with one? You make a lot of assumptions and statements about what kind of errors would be "too stupid to make"... while we all know many, many situations where divers jump into the ocean with their tank valve off. Certainly that is harder to do than get confused with regs..

Don't get upset. I never said "too stupid to make", those are your words, not mine. I have plenty of experience with a pony. Check the profile picture.

It was a nice try with the red herring and the supposition and doubt-casting at me, though it didn't work.

A pony can go many places. But the hose will likely come from someplace other than right side, over the shoulder.

Mount it on the left back, and it still comes from the left.
Sling it on the right, and it still comes from below.
Sling it on the left, and it comes from the left and below.

All this makes it difficult to confuse these regs underwater. The difference should key the diver's attention. And again, that pony reg will be stowed. The mere fact that you have to un-stow it to use it means that you're doing something wrong.

This is different than a tank valve being off, which is easy to do, and far more common. There are ways to catch your tank valve being off; just as there are ways to avoid confusing your regs.

Note where the hose comes from.
Place some color on the pony reg.
Have a different mouthpiece.

A little forethought solves this "Deadly Pony" problem before it becomes a problem.

Absolutely, and I would go further and say that if you are going to sling a pony, you should sling a 30 or a 40.

Concur. If you want true redundancy, even a 19 cu ft like I carry would not be enough. 19 cu ft is just enough to get you immediately to the surface. No swimming back to the exit point, no swimming to the line and doing a slow ascent. You go up from wherever you are to the surface. I carry a 19 cu ft too, and it's an emergency supply, nothing more. A bigger pony allows you gas to calm down, possibly resolve the problem, and still make a slow, measured ascent and safety stop.

And as far as back mounting your pony, I have to say I don't understand the appeal of that at all. I guess it's personal preference, but it seems to me that you want your emergency gas right there where you can see the valve and the reg.

+1. As well, with a back mount, you can't easily hand off the pony tank to another diver.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Don't get upset. I never said "too stupid to make", those are your words, not mine. I have plenty of experience with a pony. Check the profile picture.

It was a nice try with the red herring and the supposition and doubt-casting at me, though it didn't work.

A pony can go many places. But the hose will likely come from someplace other than right side, over the shoulder.

Mount it on the left back, and it still comes from the left.
Sling it on the right, and it still comes from below.
Sling it on the left, and it comes from the left and below.

All this makes it difficult to confuse these regs underwater. The difference should key the diver's attention. And again, that pony reg will be stowed. The mere fact that you have to un-stow it to use it means that you're doing something wrong.

This is different than a tank valve being off, which is easy to do, and far more common. There are ways to catch your tank valve being off; just as there are ways to avoid confusing your regs.

Note where the hose comes from.
Place some color on the pony reg.
Have a different mouthpiece.

A little forethought solves this "Deadly Pony" problem before it becomes a problem.


Concur. If you want true redundancy, even a 19 cu ft like I carry would not be enough. 19 cu ft is just enough to get you immediately to the surface. No swimming back to the exit point, no swimming to the line and doing a slow ascent. You go up from wherever you are to the surface. I carry a 19 cu ft too, and it's an emergency supply, nothing more. A bigger pony allows you gas to calm down, possibly resolve the problem, and still make a slow, measured ascent and safety stop.



+1. As well, with a back mount, you can't easily hand off the pony tank to another diver.

Well that profile pic does show a pony bottle, I guess that addresses my questions about how much you have used one. Do you have any photographs of how a back mounted pony coming of the left side would have the hose routed over your left side? I am not sure I understand how that would work with our standard regulator configurations? That might explain a lot. From your photograph it doesn't look like you use that method.

Have you ever used that 19 cu-ft pony to ascend? You indicated it was just barely enough to get you up from the bottom to the surface.

How deep do you dive with that pony bottle?

 

[scagrotto]

IMHO a octo plus a pony adds another failure point that is not needed.

I have a different thought process about that. 1. Does carrying a pony increase the chances of a failure with your main tank and reg? 2. Does carrying a pony mean you should eliminate some other source of redundancy?

Certainly that is harder to do than get confused with regs.

Not opening the valve is as easy as just not doing it. It's a serious blunder, but it's not a complicated or difficult blunder. If you think it's easier to confuse the 2nd stage from your pony with your primary I'll suggest that perhaps you should ponder whether or not you've got an optimal configuration.

hose routed over your left side? I am not sure I understand how that would work with our standard regulator configurations?

Are you referring to a typical 2nd stage with the hose attached on the right side? There are 2nd stages that allow the hose to be attached left or right, and 2nds that don't have an upside down. A hose coming over your left shoulder and attached to the right side of a 2nd stage could be inconvenient, but a hose coming off of a 1st stage that's near, and under, your left armpit can easily allow the 2nd stage to be oriented with the hose on the right.

 

[Txredneck]

I intend to back mount the pony bottles, right hand side. The 2nd stage is yellow with yellow hose, very distinctive from the primary 2nd stage. It will be tucked into a right hand octo pocket, as that is the most secure attachment we have used. Its always there, never comes loose the way many of the other attachments we've tried do...dangling octo like I often see in people's videos. This way there is no difference in what me already know, exactly the same as our octo has always been.

We are buddy diving, not solo diving. I know anything is possible, but... There are two pony bottles, we're buddy diving. That's 38 cu ft, not 19, of reserve air. As previously noted, when we have dove with singles with and primary and octo on one tank, the best planning I've found was to calculate enough air for diver and buddy to make it to surface including a safety stop. By that calculation I get 35 cu ft reserve when we start heading up. If anything went wrong with one tank, we would have 35 cu ft, no more. With 2 pony bottles, if something goes wrong, we have 35 cu ft, and also 38 cu ft. That's 73 cu ft reserve, 38 cu ft more than we've been diving with. And if the very unlikely scenario of both of us OOA in our mains, its equivalent to what we've been diving with. I think 19's are adequate for our diving. But certainly there must be some scenario where a 149 cu ft pony would not be enough........

I've never had any plan made to hand off my main tank with octo off to another diver in the past, neither do I plan to hand off my pony to another diver. Just as we've been doing I would hand off my pony reg, gain our wits, grab arms and ascend

We're not technical divers. We don't push NDL limits. We are not required to do a safety stop in our diving, it is suggested and we always observe it, usually exceed it. But in an emergency its not required. I ALWAYS plan enough gas for a safety stop, and enough gas for 2 divers.

Dive equipment rarely fails. But it does fail. In the short time we've been diving I've seen 2 different divers blow out valve o rings. One on the surface, the other and around 40 ft.

I've already read through every pony bottle thread I could find on here and other forums/blogs. I've already read through all the arguements of slinging vs side mount, maintaining an octo in addition to pony. I've read through the "Spare Air" 3 cu ft toy bottles. We're not diving to 130 ft, we're not even diving to 100 ft. Some people dive with their hands clasp, some cross their arms. I hold my console computer with both hands, and look at it often. We have those loud pvc clackers, noise makers. We've drilled when you see something 1 or 2 knocks, when there's an emergency bang it non stop

 

[waterpirate]

My thoughts on octo's. Do you have a second stage octo to match your primary? Or do you have a yellow thingy? Just for fun you should breath from that yelllow thingy at depth some time, then swim into the current for 100 yards to simmulate a stressed sac. Let us know how that works for you.
Eric