Rescuers Hope to Save Divers in Mexico

[d33ps1x]

If I found a group of foreign military explorers in my country I'd be asking em questions too.

And if they didn't like that then they could p*ss off back where they came from...After I was done questioning them.

Mexico has every right to be concerned with the activities of foreign military inside it's borders.

Maybe do the polite thing and fill in the government in advance as to what you are doing rather then try to explain oneself after you get caught with your pants down.

 

[coberry7]

H2OAndy,

It's a fanciful idea, but radio's transmitting through rock, even porous limestone, would have a few physics laws to overcome before it happens. Frequency hopping and encryption is one thing, transmitting through rock is another. Even if it might have been the SAS caught with their knickers around their ankles.

For what it is worth...The cavers, however they talked to the surface, couldn't have been in that bad a spot if they could refuse help, unless they were hiding something.

And the Mexican Government had every right to throw those clowns in the lockup to answer a few questions. I know if a bunch of British military folks got trapped in a cave in Kentucky, Georgia, or Tennessee and refused local help until the Royal British Navy arrived, I'd like those guys locked up to find out why.

Colin Berry

 

[H2Andy]

hmm... well the repors call it "radio," thus:
---------------------------------------------------

The rest of the group of 13, most from the Combined Services Caving Association and which includes two women, is in contact with their trapped colleagues in the cave via radio.

"We're in daily contact with them but they are bored and they're growing beards," Whitlock said. "They're getting very good at playing cards. They've made cards out of their army notebooks."

here: http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,3772-3201314,00.html

and there's even a diagram of the "radio waves" at the bottom here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3563195.stm

apparently, there are some radios that do work underground,
but only for a few hundred meters:


From the early 1960s cavers began to experiment with loop antennas. Because of their small size (typically 1m) these radiate very little "true" radio energy, and mainly generate a magnetic field which couples to the receiver loop by the principle of magnetic induction, and operates over a limited range of just a few hundred metres. Experimental induction systems have covered 27-185kHz, (i.e. most of the long-wave broadcast band), and most have used single-sideband (SSB) operation. The most notable designs have been Bob Mackin's commercially-produced Molefone, dating from 1979, which has seen widespread use in the UK, and Ian Drummond's CB Transverter, used mainly in the US and Canada.

from http://www.caves.org.uk/radio/comms_in_caves.html

here's a write-up on the Molefone (being British, i bet that's
what they were using):

http://www.sat.dundee.ac.uk/~arb/heyphone/cregj-september-2000.pdf

 

[Duncan Price]

The unit used is a Heyphone designed by John Hey and based loosely on the original molephone and in use by the cave rescue teams in the UK. The French version (Nicola Phone) has been tested to a through rock range of 1 km.

More details: http://www.heyphone.org/

Underwater versions have been built which allow cave divers to communicate with the surface whilst diving in a cave.

Duncan

PS. The reason that the trapped team refused assistance in the first place is that they were prepared for the eventuality and were going to sit it out rather than put anyone's life at risk by coming to get them. Nothing more underhand than that. In the end, the six men were escorted out through a 190 m long/-10m deep sump by a team of divers. Only one of the trapped men was a cave diver and two of the team had never used scuba before.

 

[adder70]

This happened about 1000 km from the popular diving cenotes of the Yucatan peninsular. Kinda like saying, "I'm not going to dive in florida as it is on the same coast as the pentagon, and that got hit by a plane."

Actually, the same government has jurisdiction, so it is logical to expect similar treatment from the same government, whereas Florida has a completely different demographic and no major federal government centers. So really, this comparison does not apply.

 

[H2Andy]

The unit used is a Heyphone designed by John Hey and based loosely on the original molephone and in use by the cave rescue teams in the UK.

good info, thank you

 

[Fetch]

If I found a group of foreign military explorers in my country I'd be asking em questions too.

And if they didn't like that then they could p*ss off back where they came from...After I was done questioning them.

Mexico has every right to be concerned with the activities of foreign military inside it's borders.

Maybe do the polite thing and fill in the government in advance as to what you are doing rather then try to explain oneself after you get caught with your pants down.

Ugh, so much misunderstanding. To (possibly) clear this bit up, I'm going to post a longish email message that might just hopefully convince you that this group was not involved in anything shady.

From: "RODOLFO GONZALEZ LUNA" <rogonzalez@cydsa.com>
Subject: Re: CaveTex: Caving etiquette
To: cavetex@cavetex.net

Hello David:

Yes, the Union Internationale de Speleologie has among their guidelines for
international exploration that local groups should be contacted, all permits
obtained and copies of the work should be distributed to the local group or
authorities when everything is over.

As head of international relations of the UMAE (Mexican Union of Speleological
Associations) I was aware of the presence of the British in Cuetzalan, they
informed their objectives and they are working with the SMES (Sociedad Mexicana
de Exploraciones Subterraneas or Mexican Society of Underground Explorations).
Further, given the nature and location of their activities they don't need a
special permit. Perhaps to inform the locals and local authorities about your
goals and your presence, but that's good landowner relations. As far as anybody
can tell, they went through the proper channels.

They are NOT military commandos secretly training in Puebla, they are just
regular cavers who for the most part happen to belong to the British military.

We were aware of the situation before it hit the news, but there was no need to
inform or alert the rescue community, because there's NO rescue, NO urgent
situation, NO need to evacuate immediately.

Mexican cavers are not ticked off by the British expedition and the situation
evolving there. Mexican cave rescue (ERM) is on stand-by to help, should the
need arise, but again, the situation is normal, it was expected, and it should
be resolved soon. I'm sure they're many times more worried about all that's
been going on in the media than about the water level.

Best regards,

Rodolfo (Fofo) Gonzalez
International Relations, UMAE
Northeast Region Coordinator, Espeleo Rescate Mexico (ERM)

 

[H2Andy]

"this group was not involved in anything shady"

of course not. but that's not the issue.