SCUBA Fitness over 60

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Not to make lite of physical conditioning and diving, but I don't believe there are particular requirements for instructors. To make you go beyond a physician's signature is ridiculous. In a sense, your instructor is assuming he is better than a physician at assessing your fitness.
 
If your doctor signed off on the medical release, that's all you need. They can't make you meet additional criteria.

Actually they can ... he mentioned he's taking a NAUI course. That leaves such criteria to the discretion of the instructor, not the agency.

As a NAUI instructor ... and someone who's a bit more than a year from 60 ... I wouldn't push the fitness criteria quite that high. But the instructor is within his rights to do so.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Well, according to what the great proponents of the superiority of some agencies over another have been saying, the great thing about NAUI is that the instructor can add whatever requirements he wants to the agency standards. Apparently a NAUI instructor can require a diver to speak unaccented Polish to earn a certification if he feels it is important.

Perhaps I exaggerate, but that is the message we get on ScubaBoard repeatedly, and that is supposedly why NAUI is so superior to agencies that are required to stay within their agency standards.

If this is true, then you may have to go with a different agency (or just a different instructor) to get your certification.

Not quite, John ... and your gripe is really with one person, not a whole agency. If you don't like it, then try not to be like him ... :no:

That said, NAUI does give their instructors a great deal of leeway to use their discretion. However, keep in mind that age and fitness are predisposing factors to diving ... and there are instructors out there who take such things very seriously.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Quoted for truth...I would find a new instructor. Too many with personal agendas and large egos out there (just my two cents).

... that would also be my recommendation ... I think perhaps this one shouldn't be teaching older people how to dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Not to make lite of physical conditioning and diving, but I don't believe there are particular requirements for instructors. To make you go beyond a physician's signature is ridiculous. In a sense, your instructor is assuming he is better than a physician at assessing your fitness.

He might be ... you don't know what his day job is ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
perhaps a good course of action would be to contact NAUI and ask what the responsibilities are for the instructor and what NAUI considers within the scope of an instructors position. If the instructor is out of line with respect to a doctors sign off then a complaint should be lodged with NAUI for an instructor feeling he is more qualified to make medical judgements. There is a chance however slight that extended stress evaluation might cause the mature candidate to have a damned heart attack. Is the instructor ready to accept the responsibility for that decision and of course the following course of litigation that would follow? I hear an amount of defense of the instructors choices and I'm not sure if he is qualified to set himself above that of a physician .
 
perhaps a good course of action would be to contact NAUI and ask what the responsibilities are for the instructor and what NAUI considers within the scope of an instructors position. If the instructor is out of line with respect to a doctors sign off then a complaint should be lodged with NAUI for an instructor feeling he is more qualified to make medical judgements. There is a chance however slight that extended stress evaluation might cause the mature candidate to have a damned heart attack. Is the instructor ready to accept the responsibility for that decision and of course the following course of litigation that would follow? I hear an amount of defense of the instructors choices and I'm not sure if he is qualified to set himself above that of a physician .

The answer you would get from NAUI is that it's the instructor's discretion.

NAUI and PADI have totally different mindsets when it comes to instructor discretion. You cannot really use the mindset of one to evaluate the other. Both have upsides and downsides.

The downside to the NAUI approach is that sometimes you get an instructor who makes expectations a student is not willing to reasonably try to meet. The remedy in that case is to find a different instructor.

The upside is that NAUI not only trusts us, but expects us, to act in what we believe is the best interest of our students. Unless it is an issue of an instructor doing something that puts the diver at risk, NAUI will not interfere with an instructor's discretion.

In this particular case, you have only one perspective on the issue ... and that's a very limited perspective. Without knowing the instructor's reasons, you cannot really make a rational judgement about whether or not his expectations are warranted.

I recently had a student who had ear problems that were serious enough, in my mind, that I stopped the class and told her she needed clearance from an ENT before I would continue the class. She got that clearance and returned to class. Two dives later she was displaying the same symptoms. I stopped the class again, and informed her that she needed to see a specialist. Did I override the evaluation of the first doctor? Damn right I did. I felt it was in the best interest of the student that I do so before she does something to permanently damage herself. And I make no apologies for that decision, despite the fact that I have no medical training ... because it's not the doctor's name that would be on that person's C-card, it would be mine.

Likewise, I have excused students from a class because I felt they were not taking it seriously enough. They didn't violate any agency standards ... they just gave me the impression that they would, through stupidity, put themselves in a situation to injure themselves or others ... and I will not certify people who display that attitude. It's within my rights to do so, and I make no apology for removing those people from my class.

Without hearing from the NAUI instructor in this case you have no way of knowing what the "other side" of this issue is ... and therefore no way of knowing why he established the fitness criteria he did. Perhaps he had valid reasons ... perhaps not. But this is, really, an issue that needs to be resolved between student and instructor ... not through the Internet.

As NAUI instructors, we have a lot of freedom to teach. With that freedom comes the responsibility to use it in what we feel is the best interest of our students. And while there are always exceptions, I think there is some benefit in placing the responsibility for judging fitness to dive with the instructor ... who is there, interacting with the student ... rather than with some nameless bureaucrat in an office somewhere far away who applies the same written rules to everybody.

To the OP ... if you feel this instructor is treating you unfairly, by all means lodge a complaint with NAUI headquarters (you can do so through their website at HTTP://WWW.NAUI.ORG) ... and then go find yourself an instructor who is more to your liking.

That is the most reasonable course of action in this case.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I will be 60 in 17 days. This year in Feb I was diagnosed with high blood pressure. Drug free for 59 1/2 years. My doctor who is a very experienced diver said that's outstanding nowadays. I take a low dose BP med that is DAN's drug of choice. How did I know that my doc would pick that one?

My OW is NAUI and I have AOW from both NAUI and PADI. I feel my NAUI instructor and his staff are the most attentive to detail of the 2 agencies. They are very meticulous and focused on us as students.

I "try" to get in 3 hours of cardio a week. I usually don't succeed. Sometimes I'm lucky if I get in a 20 minute run in the park...

I am a recreational diver. I don't feel at all at risk when I dive within the limits of my training. If I dive in a new environment I make sure that I have an experienced local professional with me.

I think I agree with the others here who suggest getting another instructors point of view. By the way, my instructor is a Certified Instructor Trainer who works with the local NAUI Course Director...also at the same shop. I think their standards are quite high...FWIW.
 
Thanks, again, everyone.

I have discussed this with my instructor. If I can get my doctor to attest that the exertion level I achieved during my stress test meets or exceeds the 10 - 13 MET criterion, I'm OK to go. (BTW, the 13 MET standard is stated on the back of the NAUI Medical Evaluation and Physician Approval Form, under Cardiovascular).

There's a class starting this week. I will be able to attend some of the classes for review, and also bring my equipment (yes, I have optimistically continued to accumulate gear in the interim) for checkout. Then, I'll join this class on their OW checkout at the end of October.

In all honesty, I certainly have room to improve my fitness level. And I'm sure I have occasionally given my instructor reason to doubt it. I had a laundry list of excuses, but I have since remedied or overcome them. Between bicycling and golf (don't laugh! It's a hilly course and I walk it briskly with a full bag), I have gotten a lot better.

Thanks again for your input. You've been very encouraging, and I've learned a lot. I'll report back after I get my C-card!

- Don
 
NOW he wants to know how many METs I got up to in the stress test. He says minimum 10, preferred 13.

I'm not NAUI, but the PADI medical form has little more than a space for the doctor to note that a person is fit for diving.


And frankly, that's all anyone who is not your physician needs to know. A cardiologist said you're good to go. Unless this guy can provide a medical degree, and demonstrate his ability (not mere willingness) to abide by HIPAA with respect to the maintenance of your medical records, that's all he should get.

Simply ask him for his standard HIPAA form and to see a his board membership certificate.
 

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