Setting up an old fashioned/vintage style rig

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Well, I learned to dive before BCs. I occasionally dive without one now. Hmmm, well, what you really need is a steel 72cf tank. This had the best possible bouyancy charateristics for diving sans BC. It is much easier to dive without a BC if you also dive without a wetsuit. I would recommend starting out that way --warm water or pool. Then after you get that down add the wet suit.
With a wetsuit, it will become compressed at depth. The modern idea of weighting yourself with tons of lead and then sinking to the bottom feet first (Padi style) and once there adding air to the BC does not work obviously with this type of diving. I always set myself up so that my weight would be correct for my expected cruising depth. Once the suit becomes compressed by 20 to 30 feet it does not become that much less bouyant at depth. This means you will tend to float at the surface. This requires you to actually swim to descend in a headfirst fashion not unlike a surface dive (bent pike). Once the suit is compressed by depth you will be neutral or a bit negative if your weight is correct. I mostly dive without a BC in warm water so I only have a swimsuit or lycra skin on. With a steel 72, old type plastic backpack, regulator, knife, depth guage, J valve or spg I require no weight belt fw to approx 3 lbs lead in sw.
Recently I purchased a Hammmerhead aluminum BP with two piece STA. This is much to heavy to be used with a steel 72 with no BC (assuming no wet suit either). However, it may work with an aluminum 80. The weight may be just enough to counter the undesireable positive bouyancy of the aluminum 80. Not sure, just thinking.
This type of diving is almost a lost art and is very different from the way it is taught now. You must actually swim through the water. I would suggest also not using super heavy JetFins. Get some fins that are nearly neutral in the water like many old time fins like the Voit Vikings (some actually floated).
So, you need a solid regulator you can count on, a spg, a depth guage, a watch, a plastic tank pack, a steel 72, low volume mask, neutral weight fins, weight belt with individual weights of 1 to 2 bls so you can fine tune small amounts of weight, lycra body suit, knife and maybe a modern safety sausage float. No octa--extra weight and drag, no console, no metal BP, no heavy fins, no multiple pane super mask, loose the snorkel (my opinion) and surface swim on your back, no computer. Everything you carry like the modern dive shop diver---er--tech diver is unrequired wight which increases drag and complicates weighting and trim.
You will also have to learn, in a pool, to use your lungs as your BC. Take longer, slower and deepr breaths than most do now. With the steel 72 nearing the final 1/3 it is time to surface anyways, you should rise with a deep breath and sink when you exhale at your working depth.
Various plastic backpacks should be obtainable from ebay, old dive shops and so on. Try to find one of the early style formed ones. They are more comfortable, the kind that usually have a metal band and a cam or lever to lock the tank.
I am sure there are guys with much more knowledge on this and they will give you their methods. I have hardly scratched the surface. Let me say this, you must actually be able to swim (and swim well) to dive this way, if you cannot you may drown at worst and at least you will not be succesful. N
 
Nemrod:
I always set myself up so that my weight would be correct for my expected cruising depth. Once the suit becomes compressed by 20 to 30 feet it does not become that much less bouyant at depth. This means you will tend to float at the surface. This requires you to actually swim to descend in a headfirst fashion not unlike a surface dive (bent pike). Once the suit is compressed by depth you will be neutral or a bit negative if your weight is correct.

How do you hold a safety stop?
 
What safety stop? Never did them unless the dive time was over 90% of the NDL. You plan your dive and dive your plan so one isn't necessary. If I am not within 90% of the NDL and maintain the correct assent rate I don't sweat it. I see divers doing a dive at 50% of the NDL and doing a safety stop. I know it's now drilled into students to always do it but you have to put some thought into when it may be necessary and when it is not.

Captain
 
Safety stop? Don't remember using them back then, but I almost always plan my dives with a slow ascent up a gradual slope t least where that is possible.

Dr. Bill
 
3dent, the safety stop was accomplished by remaining within the no deco limits which strictly speaking require no stop. If one included within the no deco limits a safety margin of 10% to 20% the safety stop is not needed when ascent is accomplished at 60 FPM. I can ascend at 60 FPM, we practiced this skill.
That said, if I needed to do a safety stop or hold at 10 feet I could, your not that bouyant when properly set up that you pop to the surface like a cork. If I have a steel 72, lycra suit, I am not positively bouyant or only slightly so even with the tank near empty. An aluminum 80 will behave rather different. If you have a dry suit well that is a different thing, if you have a 1/4 inch wet suit careful weighting will be required.
Leaving that behind, when diving vintage style, the weight belt goes on last. I only ditched a belt once, I was barely 14, got downstream of the boat and lost my buddy. No one on the boat saw me surface. The water was rough and I was tired. I tried to swim but the waves were filling me with water and I was struggling to keep myself where I could breath. I tried to swim on my back but I was to weak and I tried to use my snorkel face down and I just sank again. I dropped my belt! but darn if I was going to drop my tank and beautiful Calypso I had worked all summer to buy. Nope, I struggled back to the boat where the instructor casually asked me what had taken me so long, they were in a hurry to move to the next site and then for years I was belittled for having dropped my belt. Three things, I never dropped a belt again and I never used a snorkel except to snorkel ever again and I never use any more weight than I absolutely must. N
 
Nemrod:
That said, if I needed to do a safety stop or hold at 10 feet I could, your not that bouyant when properly set up that you pop to the surface like a cork.

Nemrod,

I was addressing in your statement about being buoyant until you swim your wetsuit down to 20-30 feet.

I understand planning your dive and diving your plan, but I also believe in being able to handle contingencies. You said that a safety stop is not ‘normally’ required. I agree, but also agree with conteporary theory that it is always a good idea. However, I still don’t understand how you can hold a 10’ stop if you are setting up your rig to be neutral at your planned depth.

It seems to be that if you are neutral at cruising depth with a wetsuit, as you stated, that once you rise above the crush depth of the neoprene it’s going to be impossible to hold a 10’ stop. Did I misunderstand something?

Of course, most of my dives have been with a 7mm john and jacket, hood, gloves, heavy booties, etc. which, combined, have a considerable change in buoyancy. Maybe your experience has been otherwise.
 
Yeah, your 7 mm john is a bit much. I have never owned such a suit. My thickest suit was a 1/4 inch top and bottom. Yes, I would become positive, you deal with it and as several guys have stated we don't do a safety stop because the safety stop is built into our remaining well within the no deco limits. What contingency, when it is time to surface you surface. This ain't cave diving we are speaking off. If you somehow went over time your going to be possibly low on air as well so you got all sorts of problems. This has never been a problem for me but when I fly I have never run myself out of fuel either.
Your looking at this from a modern view, you need to set all that aside and step fully into the past. We did not go into decompression, there was no computer, I don't remember safety stops becoming routine until the 80s, a 1/4 inch suit was a luxury item. As stated, we stayed WITIN the limits, at least I did, and surfaced directly at 60 FPM.
Also, as suggested, I would experiment in a pool or warm shallow water in a controlled circumstance to learn the basic principles and do it at first with no suit. Then as you master that add additional items like a suit, heavy fins etc.
If your diving in cold water or need a heavy suit or such as that this is not going to work for you probably. The original post lead me to beleive that the person just wanted to experiment and experince diving sans BC vintage style. I suggest to do so in warm water, controlled conditions with no thick wet suit to deal with.
I must suggest again, an old steel 72 will be the e-ticket for this adventure. No currently manufactured tank in my opinion has the required bouyancy characteristics for this type of diving, not used every tank but I have used steel 72s and still do. N
 
Ragarding "vintage diving" (they have vintage car races, so why not?)...

Double hose regs, aka "what Mike Nelson used"...who makes these? I recently saw a program on Navy SEAL BUDS training and they start off with dual hose rigs. Though they didnt explain why (I assumed it was because they later use Draegers with two hoses, or that they are easier for the instructors to yank off).

:monkeydan
 
Orangelion, the reason it is called vintage is because nobody makes double hose regulators since about 1974 except for the recent new Aqualung Mistral now avaialble.

Several sources are available to rebuild Voit and USD double hose regulators, parts are available and so are people who can work on them, besides, they are easy to repair and built like tanks. The performance of a good double hose is not that far behind modern regulators and probably better than a few but they are different. A diver who was not trained on them MUST aquire proper training before use. There is no purge button, the clearing procedures are different as are the breathing techniques used to make best advantage of their performance profiles. There was a time when single hose regulators were for "girls" and kids and beginners, advanced divers used double hose. As the modern training agencies took over the "show" much changed but in their day double hose regulators were the top of the hill. N
 
Did some surfing looking for information on the Mistral, and learned quite a bit about the "vintage" scene, as well as the type of system those SEALs were using during training, the Mentor.
 

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