Shadow Divers – Exposed U 869

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dbush:
However, based on his quotes, it appears to me that he intends the book to go beyond simply correcting historical errors. It seems that he is making charges of intentional deception. Certainly more serious than outdated theories, or a few incorrect facts.

how else to sell a lot of books? but now i am guilty of what gary is doing.

i see this all day at the courthouse. there are people who can't help but ascribe motives to others when simple error or mistake will do.

no... there must be a conspiracy afoot to rob one of one's earned laurels...

i've seen this in the dive industry over and over and over ... just egos at work

here's my point:

there is a tone, a stance, a point of view that is NEVER acceptable in
civilized discourse.

one refutes bad facts; one shows alternative interpretations; one DOES NOT
engage in ad hominem attacks.

doing that just discredits you as a serious debater.

it's just a shame gary doesn't seem to get this.
 
I'd be willing to lay a bunch of cash on the bet that there are a lot of distortions and factual inaccuracies in Shadow Divers that resulted from it being written for a popular audience. It was written and edited by people who did want to make money and sell books, and not by a historian. I'm a natural cynic, so the more a book like Shadow Diver is a "good read" the more I suspect the facts. This, however, really isn't the way to go about correcting those mistakes.
 
Andy, Lamont,

I understand your concern regarding the tone, and it is a valid point that will play into my judgement of Gary's book. However, I'm not sure that there is a "civilized" way to say that "you are a blatant liar". That is a serious accusation that I am not sure can be sugarcoated to make it smell sweeter. As I said before, I am very sad to see this because it appears that one or the other of my heros will certainly lose my respect in the end. I have not decided which of the two it will be at this point.
 
dbush:
However, I'm not sure that there is a "civilized" way to say that "you are a blatant liar".

just because two people remember the same thing differently does not make
them a "blatant liar."

just because one version of a story is told over another does not make the teller
a "blatant liar."

it bothers me when people resort to name-calling as their mode of argument of choice,
especially when you are accusing others of lying about things that can have
a dozen ways to be interpreted, and where ten reasonable people will disagree.

i'm not sure i can convey to you how unprofessional and petty this is
 
I've always heard good things about Gary Gentile and his books, though I don't know him personally.

However, I agree that it seemsed like he was being "confrontational" with his statements on this book. I was looking forward to his book but now I have second thoughts on buying it.

Like some others here, I thought the purpose of this book was a new theory of the sinking, but also seems to be used as an "attack" on the Shadow Divers book. I'm sure this book has some embelishments in it, but there are better ways to show his point of view besides the statements he made.

I think the title alone seems to almost show some disgruntlement. Shadow Divers Exposed. The title tells me that he's trying to use an already existing New York Bestseller book name (that is also being made into a movie) in his title to get more attention. If he has an alternate theory, which I could respect, then he should have entitled it something like "How the U-869 really sunk".

While it might not have sold as many books, I think that by these statements, that this book could have been better written that would have left him more respected.


On a completely different note, here is a statement that John Chatterton made Feb 4, 2006 about how the doesn't believe that the USCG and Navy historians are correct in their alternative sinking statements.
(Note this was long before the book was published/released so it's not a statement that Chatterton made to contridict what Gary said in his newly released book. It was made in reference to a discussion about alternate theories on the sinking. I also didn't find any reference on his website to documents he refers to, but he might have taken them down by now)

The USCG Historian's Office and the USN Historical Center are both now claiming that the USCGC Crow and the USS Koiner sunk the U869 on Feb 11, 1945. My opinion is that this account has about as much credibility as their previous version of history, where they had the wreck sunk by USN ships off Gibraltar.

My opinion is based on one question. Where is the fuel oil? Not to mention where is the debris, and remains of the crew? The wreck is virtually blown in two and has a 20 foot opening on the port side that demolished the pressure hull, the fuel bunker, and toppled the conning tower. In 1945, the Koiner came to a complete stop over the site and put a launch in the water specifically to look for evidence. No oil, no debris (like wood decking, paneling, etc), and no human remains. They saw a slight sheen of oil and concluded they had depth charged a wreck. When they sank the U521 the oil slick was 19 miles long, this attack produced nothing?

It makes sense to me that the Crow and Koiner depth charged the already sunken U869. This accounts for the damage to the stern, that appears to have no link to the actual sinking itself.

I think history should be held to a rigorous standard. The military historians involved in this case simply are more interested in credit for their service and themselves. The divers that have taken this story on the road are looking for some notoriety by linking themselves to this now famous wreck. I know them, and I don't think much of them.

I will be posting all the relavant documents that I have in the next month or so on my website johnchatterton.com.

I am a combat veteran. I have the utmost respect for my fellow veterans. The crew of the USS Koiner and the USCGC Crow went to war and did what was asked of them. They are American heroes, regardless of what happened with the U869.


Cheers

John Chatterton
 
The divers that have taken this story on the road are looking for some notoriety by linking themselves to this now famous wreck. I know them, and I don't think much of them.

hmmm... not super impressed with this statement either...
 
i was just thinking

man... what a mess

too bad neither party can raise above all this crap
 
H2Andy:
i was just thinking

man... what a mess

too bad neither party can raise above all this crap

I thought Chattertons statements were made with much more class.

Note also that he made these in Feb and were not directed at this book. I thought he gave a pretty good summary of questioning the alternate sinking theory with the fuel oil question. (just my opinion.)
 
nah, he took a dig at Gentile. he knew what was coming down the pike. he
knew Gentile was promoting the alternate scenario

wish he'd taken the high road

"hey, ultimately, we want what really happened to be established. i think
x happened, and here's why, but i am open to listening to what others
have to say"

wow
 
I don't agree that Chatterton took the "low road" in this situation. I think he's really trying to defend the truth behind it and trying to keep the arguements over what happenned intelligent and not let it turn into a mud slinging. It's hard to read the facts when they're covered in mud.
 
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