Split from: Cozumel Incident - Fake C Cards?

[Waterskier1]

To the best of my knowledge there are no laws that make it a criminal offense to scuba without a certification. I don't think we want there to be any either. That is why "self policing" is an important part of the industry, at least try to keep the untrained person from aquiring the things necessary for diving. And at all cost, keep the government from regulating the sport.

What authority does anyone have to "keep the untrained person from aquiring (sic) the things necessary for diving"?

My point is how can you "police" if there is no law to "police" against?

How can you legally keep someone from acquiring diving equipment? Is this to say it is wrong for someone to purchase dive equipment for me, as a gift, as example?

I understand the policing actions that one might take when someone is violating a law (as example, prescription drug use/abuse), but it appears to me that a law being violated is requisite to perform a legal police action.

I'm not trying to create an uproar, it is just that I keep hearing we need to police, or it's illegal to have scuba tanks, or to fill scuba tanks if the owner doesn't have a C-card, and I can't find the legal basis behind the statements.

 

[DandyDon]

Some of you may not remember being asked for a c-card, just because it wasn't that memorable. Most resorts that I've been to ask you to flash a c-card as you are signing the original waiver for the week. The event goes by so fast, you may just not remember.

Yeah, until I personally tried avoiding showing cards - just to what would happen? Often worked.

 

[boulderjohn]

During an instructional class at a county-owned reservoir in Colorado, we (the instructional staff) were checked for cards. It would have been a $100 fine to be without it.

I think the policing come through fear of a lawsuit. If it is an industry standard that a diver must be certified, then an operator that allows someone to dive without certification is probably risking a lawsuit in case of an accident.

BTW, I notice that the original topic of this thread was pretty much untouched. It sounds as if an unfounded rumor started something that had no legs of its own.

 

[adurso]

To the best of my knowledge there are no laws that make it a criminal offense to scuba without a certification. I don't think we want there to be any either. That is why "self policing" is an important part of the industry, at least try to keep the untrained person from aquiring the things necessary for diving. And at all cost, keep the government from regulating the sport.

Many of us acquired gear, read a book, or were told by someone more experienced "pinch your nose and blow as you go down, do not hold your breath, pull the rod when it gets hard to breathe, and do not come up faster than your slowest bubble"

That is how we learned to dive.

There is no reason why people today cannot do the same.

 

[Waterskier1]

I originally posted:

How does one "Police" something when there are no laws prohibiting it? To my knowledge, there are no laws, as in statutes, regulations, or codes in the USA that govern the requirement to have a "Scuba Card" or to have taken any specific "Scuba Course".

John responded:

During an instructional class at a county-owned reservoir in Colorado, we (the instructional staff) were checked for cards. It would have been a $100 fine to be without it.

I think I addressed that under the following statement (and I think that was a City, not County, owned reservoir ):

There are such "laws" regarding where and how you can participate in the sport (like where you dive, flags/floats required, etc.), but none address the requirement for a PADI or any other agency "Certification".

That requirement is in their "law" (or statue, or code, or whatever it is, much the same as where you can dogs in their parks).

And this:

I think the policing come through fear of a lawsuit. If it is an industry standard that a diver must be certified, then an operator that allows someone to dive without certification is probably risking a lawsuit in case of an accident.

was addressed under this:

Most LDS's, Dive Ops, Charters, etc., request the "Cert card" for their or their insurance companies attempt at mitigating liability.

I think John's post pretty much reinforces the thoughts in my post.

My point was more to the effect that I don't feel responsible to "police" someone for diving more than 60-ft deep (as example) by requiring they show me their Advanced or better c-card, and if they could/would not produce said card, somehow threaten to punish them.

Maybe I have a different understanding of "Self-Policing", and that's more to the point of my post.

I don't see anyone going to jail for simply diving without a C-card. I'm not advocating anyone doing it, just haven't seen any "Law" against it nor any "penalty" for doing so.

 

[Waterskier1]

Many of us acquired gear, read a book, or were told by someone more experienced "pinch your nose and blow as you go down, do not hold your breath, pull the rod when it gets hard to breathe, and do not come up faster than your slowest bubble"

That is how we learned to dive.

There is no reason why people today cannot do the same.

My "buddy" in Advanced Open Water was a retired Seal and Seal Dive Instructor. He married and his wife was a recreational diver. This very experienced (and patient) diver had to take OW and AOW to meet the minimum requirements of "Industry", even though was far more experienced than the requirements required. It's odd that there are no easy was to provide Military experience. But, this is not unusual. I held several military/government positions and responsibilities with no requirement for civilian license. Another common one would be Military pilots.

 

[boulderjohn]

Rick,

I think I addressed that under the following statement (and I think that was a City, not County, owned reservoir ):

No, it was county owned. I was talking about Carter Lake, owned by Larimer County. (I bet you think I was talking about Aurora Reservoir. There are some feisty rangers there, but nothing like Carter Lake.)

I think John's post pretty much reinforces the thoughts in my post.

Although you used the word "responded" in your post to refer to my comments, I really wasn't responding to you specifically; I was just adding some comments. You are right in that they do support what you said.

 

[Waterskier1]

John,

You are right, I was thinking about Aurora. I haven't been to any LCRB Lakes since Pueblo Res opened for camping (late '70s?).

Also, I apologize for the assumption regarding responding to my post.

 

[boulderjohn]

John,

You are right, I was thinking about Aurora. I haven't been to any LCRB Lakes since Pueblo Res opened for camping (late '70s?).

Also, I apologize for the assumption regarding responding to my post.

No problem. Just one of the many potential misunderstandings that arise in this kind of communication medium.

 

[fnfalman]

What authority does anyone have to "keep the untrained person from aquiring (sic) the things necessary for diving"?

My point is how can you "police" if there is no law to "police" against?

How can you legally keep someone from acquiring diving equipment? Is this to say it is wrong for someone to purchase dive equipment for me, as a gift, as example?

I understand the policing actions that one might take when someone is violating a law (as example, prescription drug use/abuse), but it appears to me that a law being violated is requisite to perform a legal police action.

I'm not trying to create an uproar, it is just that I keep hearing we need to police, or it's illegal to have scuba tanks, or to fill scuba tanks if the owner doesn't have a C-card, and I can't find the legal basis behind the statements.

I was thinking of getting me a black ninja outfit with PADI SWAT embroidered on the back and maybe some sort of PADI POLICE badge that I can show to the fake C-card users or the unsafe divers.