The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Thalassamania]

Let's say that what you say is true (and I think that it is not). It does great violence to the truth to say that, "SEI is no different than PADI in that regard" if they draw the line in rather different places. I suspect that what you say is true for PADI, while Jim and I both try simply minimize the possibility in absolute terms.

 

[Thalassamania]

I'm honestly not sure where that idea got into my brain, so I can't point you to a source. That's why I asked the question. It's something I think I've heard someplace, but I couldn't point you to any source and don't presume it to be factual knowledge.

As far as I know that is not the case. It is possible, however, that some Coasties have taken a Scripps model course, just as some NOAA divers have, but it is not a requirement for either USCG or NOAA, and divers from neither organization should be blanket considered Scripps model trained.

 

[Kingpatzer]

You are really reading more into this than there is.

No, I'm simply responding to your statement.

You are assuming we go by standards of other agencies or the RSTC. We do not.

No, I'm not.

You seem to have the idea that training should be done with the idea that they will have to come back for more. So did I until I woke up and saw what the real motivation was behind this idea and the results of it. It was at that time that my conscience would not allow me to be a part of it any longer.

No. I recognize that there are multiple models for training and that each has advantages and disadvantages.

All I'm responding to your appearant surprise that:

Somewhere there must be somebody saying a certain number of new divers dying is ok.

By noting that every agency draws a line as to how much risk they will accept. Every agency decides where OW training will stop. And in every one of those cases, there are foreseeable situations where the student will not have received sufficient training. Given enough time and enough students, someone will die because of that lack of training.

When dealing with recreational divers, every agency and instructor has to take into account the fact that skills will degrade with disuse, and they decide where to draw the line with regard to drilling skills knowing that some of their students will inevitably go diving at some time in the future with skills degraded to the point that they are at significantly increased risk to injury and death.

Everyone draws that line.

It shouldn't be a surprise.

 

[bnc1978]

"If I had the ability to change one thing about today's basic open water course it would be to make the class a little longer so as to incorporate some rescue skills in the class"

there are some clubs here in Aus that have extended the basic course from 4 dives to 8, for that very reason.

 

[DCBC]

In all fairness, when it comes to diver training, you have four major factors:

1. The Student

What is the student's attitude? Does he just want a card, or does he want to learn everything he can? How much money does he want to spend? How long is he willing to spend on training? If he wants to cover the bare minimums, s/he will likely go to PADI. If s/he's interested in something more inclusive, they will seek-out other training. In all likelihood however, they will fall into PADI's large marketing machine.

2. The LDS

There are more PADI facilities than any other. This is based upon business. PADI's business model was designed to lower training standards to increase turn-over and sell equipment. A Dive Shop is in the business of making money; it's all about revenue generation. As I've said before, PADI is like McDonald's it offers a quick, efficient and cheap product, that's not the most healthy choice, but it's good enough for the student (who usually has no idea what he's buying).

3. The Certification Organization

As I've mentioned, PADI is a for-profit company; while some of the others are not-for profits (like NAUI). Before someone starts shooting, I'm not against making money. This thread is however about the philosophy of diver training. If your focus is on diver education, it's reasonable that your viewpoint is different from an organization that is just trying to generate funds for its owners.

How the organization is run is also different. PADI is run by it's owners and those hired to work for the Corporation. NAUI (for example) is an Association run by it's members. In other words, it is the member Instructors who are in control, not the businessmen. This leads to inefficiencies within the NAUI organization. Remember it's primarily not profit driven, although this is a factor.

PADI controls what must be taught and restricts the meaningful content of the program. This is done in bite sized chunks, requiring the diver to complete many programs to become reasonably competent. Other organizations have minimum standards, but do more to empower the Instructor and encourage them to expand upon the learning experience. They go one step further, to require the Instructor to teach everything that is required to prepare the diver for the local environment. As the ethical and legal responsibility is placed on the Instructor, the Instructor calls the shots as to what is required. This is based upon the reality that one cannot have the responsibility without the authority.

4. The Instructor

Instructors from all organizations want to do what is best for the student. PADI Instructors are at a bit of a disadvantage, as the focus of the training is a shorter program, less training and a training cycle that requires a student to complete several programs to be competent and independant. Some Instructors are pressured by the PADI LDS to complete everything quickly and efficiently, but not to expand training beyond the minimum. Time is money.

An observation that I've noticed is that when PADI divers enter the PADI system, they usually are diehard PADI people that stay in the PADI training stream. They are less likely to go to another organization for certification, or cross-certification.

Personally, I feel that I have become a better Instructor after each time I was cross-certified with another organization. Every diving certification body (including PADI) had something positive to offer. This has expanded my knowledge of diving instruction and helped me better understand the diving industry. I believe that each organization has something to learn from PADI, as PADI has something to learn from each organization.

If you are wanting to start a diving business today and wish to maximize profits, PADI is the way to go. If however you are an independent instructor wanting to prepare divers with the skill-sets they require before they walk out the door, avoid the PADI philosophy of training.

 

[Kingpatzer]

DCBC, one other thing it's about, and the one thing that may be most important for many is availability of options. In my area, for example, there are 4 shops in reasonable driving range. All of them are PADI stores.

There is a NAUI store and an SSI store that are outside of what I consider a reasonable drive. I did make the trip to the NAUI shop for the Master class, and am glad I did. I'd rather have actually learned something to be called a Master Diver than just paid for a card! But I would never have chosen them for OW though even if I had believed NAUI to be a better program at the time. I think MIT is a better school than the one I attended when I was in the military. But the 2 day drive each way wouldn't work for me.

One of the real problems I have with all of the complaints from the instructors of other agencies on this board about how much PADI sucks is precisely that their business model either doesn't allow them to compete in terms of market penetration or they are too lazy and broke to do so. These agencies are verging non-factors in the diving community as a whole, and are simply non-existent not just in my locale but in many areas around the USA. How many divers did SEI certify last year? A few thousand at most? Was that even 1% of what PADI certified?

Quite a few agencies have entire states without a single dive store represented.

It is ludicrous to complain about how much PADI sucks when these agencies are not giving the millions of potential dive customers a meaningful option to choose an agency other than PADI.

No matter how valid the points being made might appear, for huge numbers of divers and people who wish to instruct, there is no other meaningful choice than PADI. Fix that and then your complaints become more reasonable. Until then it's a lot of whining that is literally pointless.

From a number of posters here there is a constant drone about how the situation should change. But how many of these same posters have taken a look around, found an under-served market and did the work to open up a store in that area? How many have put their resources where their mouths are? Sure they've done the easy bit and got certified themselves, though most seem to have been certified to teach well before PADI came along. For all the vociferous complaints, they don't seem to have done anything to fix the biggest obstacle standing in the way of actually doing something about their complaints. Idealist convictions without meaningful actions are just sour grapes, in my humble opinion.

 

[Web Monkey]

One of the real problems I have with all of the complaints from the instructors of other agencies on this board about how much PADI sucks is precisely that their business model either doesn't allow them to compete in terms of market penetration or they are too lazy and broke to do so.

Not a big fan of diplomacy?

Terry

 

[Crush]

It is ludicrous to complain about how much PADI sucks when these agencies are not giving the millions of potential dive customers a meaningful option to choose an agency other than PADI.

I see nothing ludicrous about pointing out perceived shortcomings, especially if those perceiving the shortcomings are veterans with years of experience (not me).

No matter how valid the points being made might appear, for huge numbers of divers and people who wish to instruct, there is no other meaningful choice than PADI. Fix that and then your complaints become more reasonable. Until then it's a lot of whining that is literally pointless.

Might is right? The King can do no wrong?

Anecdotally, I know at least one person who was concerned that, if he was to take his "scuba course" (basic-OW) with NAUI, would this prevent him from diving at the resort near his family's vacation home, which is a PADI shop? I informed him that he could dive with the PADI shop on a NAUI cert. The problem does not appear to be that NAUI, SEI, etc., can't do the training, it is that PADI is so very effective at advertising and getting the business. If the mass of potential new divers out there all decided to boycott PADI, I am sure that you would see PADI shops turning into NAUI, SEI, etc., shops, virtually overnight.

From a number of posters here there is a constant drone about how the situation should change. But how many of these same posters have taken a look around, found an under-served market and did the work to open up a store in that area? How many have put their resources where their mouths are? Sure they've done the easy bit and got certified themselves, though most seem to have been certified to teach well before PADI came along. For all the vociferous complaints, they don't seem to have done anything to fix the biggest obstacle standing in the way of actually doing something about their complaints. Idealist convictions without meaningful actions are just sour grapes, in my humble opinion.

Or not so humble... I may have missed something, but most of those doing the "complaining" have put their money where their mouths are by running shops - take DCBC and Jim Lapenta. Some, like myself, like to dive but have non-diving employment which: (a) allows us to dive; and (b) precludes trying to run a dive shop "on the side." It is a logical fallacy to suggest that just because I am not involved in running a dive shop that I cannot accurately and correctly observe problems with diver training. Finally, it seems that in drawing attention to faults in diver training, the OP and subsequent posters are actually "doing something about their complaints" - more than one poster has learned something of value from this thread.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I see nothing ludicrous about pointing out perceived shortcomings, especially if those perceiving the shortcomings are veterans with years of experience (not me).

Might is right? The King can do no wrong?

No, the king can do plenty that is wrong, but what are the one's complaining doing to meaningfully address the problem? Pretty well as little as possible from what I can see.

SEI is charging people to become instructors when they could be finding ways to convert instructors at no to low cost.

For example -- from a quick google search, SEI is represented by one store in Texas. Which has 2 of the top 10 metro areas in terms of population, and 3 of the top 30. The state itself is second in terms of total population of the US. Even if I'm wrong about the current state of penetration in Texas, I know for a fact there are entire states which aren't served, all of which have metro areas large enough to support a successful diver training program.

If SEI (and others, I don't mean to single them out, but Jim is perhaps the most identifiable poster in this thread in terms of relationship to an alternate agency) really wants to change things, put some trainers in Texas and these other areas and run a few instructor training courses at 0 to nominal cost for participants. Put real money where their mouths are and I'll believe they actually care about changing things.

The problem does not appear to be that NAUI, SEI, etc., can't do the training, it is that PADI is so very effective at advertising and getting the business.

So what are the other agencies doing to meaningfully combat that? Advertising on cable channels is not that expensive. Work together to create an add for scuba diving "sponsored by the scuba training agencies of NAUI, SEI, etc." and sponsor a scuba related program on Discovery channel.

If the mass of potential new divers out there all decided to boycott PADI, I am sure that you would see PADI shops turning into NAUI, SEI, etc., shops, virtually overnight.

So what are the agencies doing to try to make that happen besides having a few representives on Scuba board bitching to people who are by and large already certified?

Or not so humble... I may have missed something, but most of those doing the "complaining" have put their money where their mouths are by running shops - take DCBC and Jim Lapenta.

What have they done to address market penetration? Jim doesn't run a shop either, btw.

DCBC's been around forever according to him, but he only has one shop if I'm not mistaken. So either his business model can't open another in an area that is under-served by his agency/training method, or he'd rather spend his time doing other things that are more important to him than addressing the state of diver training.

Some, like myself, like to dive but have non-diving employment which: (a) allows us to dive; and (b) precludes trying to run a dive shop "on the side."

Nothing is stopping such people from quiting their jobs and trying to make a dive shop work other than a lack of conviction that the problem is actually important enough to address combined with a fear of failure.

It is a logical fallacy to suggest that just because I am not involved in running a dive shop that I cannot accurately and correctly observe problems with diver training.

Oberve away. Until you try to do something about it, you're just whining. Actions matter far more than words. Anyone can whine.

Finally, it seems that in drawing attention to faults in diver training, the OP and subsequent posters are actually "doing something about their complaints" - more than one poster has learned something of value from this thread.

When I see one of these people move from an area that is represented by more than one trainer for their organization to a state that not represented at all, precisely to address that need, then at least I can give that person the credit of having the courage of their convictions. When I see their organizations start trying to pro-actively address their lack of market penetration by enticing instructors in under-served or completely un-served areas to move to their organization by at least going to those areas to offer training if not doing so at deep discounts, then I'll believe that the agencies care enough to act. Until they do, they are demonstrating that they are content enough with the status quo.

Whine away. But if folks want change, work for it.

 

[Crush]

...Put real money where their mouths are and I'll believe they actually care about changing things. ... So what are the other agencies doing to combat that? Advertising on cable channels is not that expensive. Work together to create an add for scuba diving "sponsored by the scuba training agencies of NAUI, SEI, etc." and sponsor a scuba related program on Discovery channel.

So what are the agencies doing to try to make that happen besides having a few representives on Scuba board bitching to people who are by and large already certified?

What have they done to address market penetration?

Nothing is stopping such people from quiting their jobs and trying to make a dive shop work other than a lack of conviction that the problem is actually important enough to address combined with a fear of failure.

Oberve away. Until you try to do something about it, you're just whining. Actions matter far more than words. Anyone can whine.

When I see one of these people move from an area that is represented by more than one trainer for their organization to a state that not represented at all, precisely to address that need, then at least I can give that person the credit of having the courage of their convictions. When I see their organizations start trying to pro-actively address their lack of market penetration by enticing instructors in under-served or completely un-served areas to move to their organization by at least going to those areas to offer training if not doing so at deep discounts, then I'll believe that the agencies care enough to act. Until they do, they are demonstrating that they are content enough with the status quo.

Whine away. But if folks want change, work for it.

Kingpatzer, you really need to start your own thread. The OP was:

Is this training philosophy a good one in your opinion, or should more time be spent developing independence in diver training? How does this philosophy affect you as a diver or does it?

It seems that, in offering opinions, the posts are on-topic. By telling people to put-up or shut-up, you may not be...