The Philosophy of Diver Training

Initial Diver Training

  • Divers should be trained to be dependent on a DM/Instructor

    Votes: 3 3.7%
  • Divers should be trained to dive independently.

    Votes: 79 96.3%

  • Total voters
    82
  • Poll closed .

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

No ... providing quality education costs more.

Quality sometimes correlates to cost, but does not equate to it. When speaking about providing a valuable educational experience to the student, it is not necessarily the case that quality must cost more. If your shop has it's own pool, for example, then the costs to keep the pool (not the store) open for pool sessions from 6-10:30 rahter than from 7-10 do not differ by anything at all.



there are perhaps 8 or 9 instructors in the Seattle area who I will refer potential students to. They pretty well cover the gamut of agencies ... NAUI, PADI, SSI, SDI/TDI, and UTD. The one thing they all have in common is that they turn out quality divers.


So, does this PADI instructor work for a shop? Does he or she follow PADI standards? Is that instructor associated with a shop and does that shop fail to compete because their costs are so high?
 
So obviously you are happy with your choice of becoming a PADI AI and you are happy with your choice of agency

Yes, I love to teach, and love diving. Combining those two passions is something I enjoy a great deal.

. . . because you agree that more business can be generated by providing dumbed down certs for occasional divers, even though the dumbed down cert has no expiration and these poor ignorant divers are out there thinking they know what they are doing and are in absolute ignorant bliss-excellent choice on your part, good for you!
I don't agree that simply because an instructor teaches for PADI that the educational experience must be sub-par, nor do I agree that the cert is "dumbed down," and the dives we turn out are not "poor ignorant divers."

What you are proposing that we do to change the whole diving world against an established 500lb gorilla would be fine if you had an unlimited budget and nothing else to do, I think it's time you got real instead of whinging on about people that do care about the quality of training and telling them to stop whining, we are doing something about it what are you doing?
I am all for students having a positive, valuable, quality education. So I spend my time providing that to diving students. I'm not arguing that the diving world should change, or implying that every diver is at risk of imminent death because PADI exists.

Complacency and diving do not mix
I never said they did.

Nor am I interested in only seeing one point of view. I have investigated the possibility of observing other agency's courses to see how they do things differently. Sadly, the angencies I'm interested in observing don't offer classes anywhere near me.
 
I'd prefer to speak for myself, thank you.

I'm not saying "we need better dive training out there" because of ANYTHING that PADI is doing. Frankly, I don't CARE what PADI is doing. My only comment about PADI is that they mislead people by giving their courses the same title as something that their competitors already created at a higher level ... as evidenced by the examples I gave. Misleading your customers is reprehensible, I don't care WHAT product you're offering.

As for what I'M saying, I think I stated it pretty clearly ... I am not trying to change the world. I'm just interested in doing the best I can to influence the divers I can reach in a positive way.

I didn't get into teaching scuba to improve the worldwide state of dive training ... I got into it to help the people who come to me to be better divers.

Can y'all wrap your head around that concept?

Diving isn't a business to me ... it's a passion. I didn't get into it to make money ... I already have a job that pays me pretty well. I got into teaching to help those who WANT my help to become better divers. I'm not interested in changing the state of dive instruction ... I'm only interested in changing individuals ... and ONLY those who choose to accept the help I can give them.
So please ... PLEASE ... stop speaking for me. Because, frankly, you aren't doing a very good job of it.


Dude, I think it's YOU who has the reading comprehension problem. I don't waste my time whining about PADI on the Internet. That's a complete waste of time because they not only don't care what I have to say ... they don't even care what their own instructors have to say. Their business model works for them ... that's all they worry about.

So no ... I don't whine about PADI. I haven't been, as you say, "doing it for years" ... I haven't been doing it at all.

And I think I HAVE changed some things in diving ... for those divers who are interested in the changes I can help them make. That is really all I care to do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It almost sounds like you are admitting that you are not really a "professional". A professional (instructor) is engaged in the business TO MAKE MONEY. If you are into the "profession" for goals other than money, how can you letigitmately critize instructors that are attempting to truely make a living in this business? The "true professionals" need to compete on price and often can't afford to provide an excessively long or involved course.

I don't really beleive all of that, but if you are willing to donate an incredible amount of time to students, it doesn't mean that you should be excessively harsh about the training that is provided by instructors that simply comply with current standards.
 
Quality sometimes correlates to cost, but does not equate to it. When speaking about providing a valuable educational experience to the student, it is not necessarily the case that quality must cost more. If your shop has it's own pool, for example, then the costs to keep the pool (not the store) open for pool sessions from 6-10:30 rahter than from 7-10 do not differ by anything at all.
Don't kid yourself ... pools cost money to own and maintain. So even if the shop has its own pool, the cost of owning and maintaining that pool have to be factored into the cost of the course.

The only way to offer an inexpensive course is to either cut corners, or run the course as a loss-leader and hope to make the money back in gear sales.

So, does this PADI instructor work for a shop? Does he or she follow PADI standards? Is that instructor associated with a shop and does that shop fail to compete because their costs are so high?

I already told you I ain't going to get involved in that discussion. Suffice it to say that there is nothing in PADI standards that prevent an instructor from teaching a quality class. There is nothing in the standards that forces them to teach a quality class either ... it really, truly boils down to the choices the individual instructor makes.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
1. PADI certification requires the instructor to teach to its minimum standards (minimum from the sense of no more than these).

All agencies require their instructors to teach to their standards. PADI does not require that instructors teach more than is in their standards. Still, in every PADI course I have ever taken discussion and information has extended far beyond what is in the PADI materials, and in each I've received supplemental materials from my instructors.

The agency does not encourage the instructor to teach anything beyond these minimum standards.

You are correct. The agency does not encourage instructors to teach additional material not in their standards. They do not, however, prohibit it.

Within the standards, they are told to teach those standards and skills to mastery level. Something that may well not be happening as well as it should -- a failure I place on the dive shop owners and profit motives rather than on instructors.

BTW, your insistence on using the term "minimum" continually shows that you are not merely interested in discussing factual observations. In education, as has been pointed out to you in this thread and other places, standards are. Using the adjective "minimum" is simply grammatically unnecessary, unless of course what you're trying to do is making a value judgment to take a swipe at standards you don't like. Which does point to bashing rather than having an discussion about observed differences.

It is possible to inform people about differences in philosophy and content without being judgmental when doing it. If your goal is education and not proselytizion then discuss the differences.


The instructor may not test on anything beyond the minimums and the minimums are the only criteria for certification. Once met, the student must be certified.
While it is true that one must only evaluate a student based on mastery of the specific skills, there is nothing in the standards that limit how many times those skills may be drilled (there are minimums but no maximums), nor is there any requirement that those skills not be evaluated using proper trim in the water column rather than on the pool bottom. And what constitutes mastery is defined in the OW standards as:

During the Confined Water Dives,
mastery is defined as performing
the skill so it meets the stated
performance requirements in a
reasonably comfortable, fluid,
repeatable manner as would be
expected of an Open Water Diver.
There is plenty of leeway for an instructor to have very high standards with respect to what passing a skill entails.

What the instructor may not do is use a different standard of mastery among different students, nor test other skills as part of passing the course.

But not having to test other skills does not mean that the instructors can not present them, have the students practice them, and even hold off moving onto required skills until the instructor is happy that the students are comfortable in the water.

There are 5 required confined water dives, but there is no maximum time frame for each dive. I don't believe it would be against standards to run each dive according to how long the instructor's air lasts, and if a student or 5 need to change their tanks, so be it.

Advantage: The training course is universal. The same course is presented in all geographic areas worldwide. This allows precise quality control.

Disadvantage: What is required to train a diver is not the same in all locations. Any program designed for warm water omits other requirements.
This is true and is, I think, a legitimate complaint about the PADI OW course as it is frequently mis-applied. The caveat here is that PADI OW certification does limit a diver to diving in conditions similar to or better than they those in which they are trained. And I don't personally see it as a cop-out to state that some dives are simply not suited to OW trained divers as OW is envisioned under PADI's system.

PADI's approach is modular, and the OW course is envisioned as a shorter course designed to address the needs of the majority of divers -- who are warm water vacation divers.

In my local environment, by way of example, the lakes are frozen 5 months of the year. Should an OW diver be trained to dive in both thick and thin ice conditions as that is the local environment? I personally don't think that is the case.

Other agencies recognize that the instructor's knowledge of the local diving conditions is a valuable resource.
PADI recognizes this as well, and makes specific references in the standards to the instructor applying their knowledge of the local conditions to evaulate suitability of sites for OW instruction -- and thus by extension drawing the lines as to what local dives are suitable for OW trained divers and which are not.

The onus is not on the organization, rather the instructor to decide when the student should be certified. This is a distinct difference to the PADI training philosophy.

Advantage: Divers are trained to dive safely in the local environment.

Disadvantage: As local environments vary, QA is more difficult to assess. Training requirements are more extensive, which affect the profit margins of those trying to be cost-competitive with PADI shops.
Actually, just trying to be cost competitive, it has nothing to do with agency. The more subjective you make training assessment, the more a shop can be negatively impacted by instructors who are overly conservative. But a more serious issue when dealing with a larger organization is that of instructor conduct with respect to students and applying the same standards across the board even within the same course.

2. The PADI training philosophy is modular in a slightly different way to the other organizations. Using rescue as an example, this is purposely omitted from initial training requiring the diver to take advanced and rescue courses before this is taught.

Advantage: This encourages the diver to seek further training, as his knowledge is insufficient to maintain diver safety . . .
This is a matter of opinion that is not supported by objective data. We may never have this data, and while it is a rather common belief, there is no way of demonstrating that it is true or not at this point.

And this is another point of not so subtle bashing rather than discussion.

The real advantage is that for the vast majority of divers diving today, anything beyond cramp removal and tired diver tows are not required. They fall decidedly into the 'nice to have' bucket.

Disadvantage: The PADI OW diver dives with minimal training. S/he is not in a position to adequately perform the role of a Buddy (the rescue of the buddy, if this is required).
If this is the disadvantage for PADI it is equally a disadvantage of every organization that has a separate rescue course. Unless you wish to contend that all of those other agencies are selling a course which is unnecessary as their students have already been given all of those skills.

You want to discuss differences in philosophy, but even when you post what appears to be an honest attempt to point out some differences, you engage in value pronouncements that show you really are not just about the discussion. I get that you don't like PADI or their philosophy, but it is possible to talk about something you don't like without making subjective value judgments which make furthering such a discussion more difficult for anyone who would choose to engage you rather than merely agreeing with you.
 
All agencies require their instructors to teach to their standards. PADI does not require that instructors teach more than is in their standards. Still, in every PADI course I have ever taken discussion and information has extended far beyond what is in the PADI materials, and in each I've received supplemental materials from my instructors.

Perhaps times have changed. When I was a PADI Instructor, PADI insurance only covered those areas that are part of the PADI program. PADI would not defend an instructor from liability outside of its program; which if you think about it, makes a lot of sense. If this is still the case, all the PADI instructors teaching outside the PADI box, are really putting themselves out on a limb; don't you think?

You are correct. The agency does not encourage instructors to teach additional material not in their standards. They do not, however, prohibit it.

I believe you are incorrect. PADI specifically prohibits teaching certain skills within its program. This was the purpose of the "optional" skills category. Why would PADI specifically list what could be "optionally taught," if anything could be? Can you teach buddy breathing if you wanted to?

Within the standards, they are told to teach those standards and skills to mastery level. Something that may well not be happening as well as it should -- a failure I place on the dive shop owners and profit motives rather than on instructors.

The instructors are the ones that control the certification of divers, not the dive shops. Dive shops don't generally carry liability insurance for the certification of divers. They can influence the instructors to do things their way, but the onus is on the instructors to make the certification decision in-light of diver safety. Instructors that aqueous to the dive shop, shouldn't hold an instructor's rating imo.

BTW, your insistence on using the term "minimum" continually shows that you are not merely interested in discussing factual observations. In education, as has been pointed out to you in this thread and other places, standards are. Using the adjective "minimum" is simply grammatically unnecessary, unless of course what you're trying to do is making a value judgment to take a swipe at standards you don't like. Which does point to bashing rather than having an discussion about observed differences.

In the PADI context you are correct, but to those that do not agree with the PADI training philosophy, you are mistaken. With PADI, minimum standards and standards are the same thing. In many other diving certification agencies, minimum standards are those required by the certification agency. Instructors have the responsibility to instill any other skill-sets and knowledge they think is required to maintain diver safety. Minimum standards plus the added knowledge and skill-sets required by the instructor (instructor standard) equals the "standard" in-which the student must meet for certification. Minimum standards and the certification "standard" are not usually the same thing.

It is possible to inform people about differences in philosophy and content without being judgmental when doing it. If your goal is education and not proselytizion then discuss the differences.

I have attempted to do so, but stating my opinion does not equate to a discussion.

But not having to test other skills does not mean that the instructors can not present them, have the students practice them, and even hold off moving onto required skills until the instructor is happy that the students are comfortable in the water.

This is a hollow comment. He may teach other skill-sets, but he can not evaluate any of them toward PADI certification. Anything he teaches outside the scope of the specific PADI certification program, s/he stands alone when it comes to liability. My point is that when he is doing this, he is not teaching under the auspices of the PADI organization, but despite it. Moreover, the PADI training philosophy is in place to maximize profits. As most of the dive stores are PADI facilities and all of them are in business to make money. The number of them tolerating giving the diver additional training for free are few.

You first state "Within the standards, they are told to teach those standards and skills to mastery level. Something that may well not be happening as well as it should -- a failure I place on the dive shop owners and profit motives rather than on instructors" then you say "But not having to test other skills does not mean that the instructors can not present them, have the students practice them, and even hold off moving onto required skills until the instructor is happy that the students are comfortable in the water."

This confuses me. :confused: How is it that the skills in the standards are not being taught "well as it should," yet the same instructors have time to teach skill-sets outside of the training program?

There are 5 required confined water dives, but there is no maximum time frame for each dive. I don't believe it would be against standards to run each dive according to how long the instructor's air lasts, and if a student or 5 need to change their tanks, so be it.

Given the business focus, how often do you suspect that this is done?

This is true and is, I think, a legitimate complaint about the PADI OW course as it is frequently mis-applied. The caveat here is that PADI OW certification does limit a diver to diving in conditions similar to or better than they those in which they are trained. And I don't personally see it as a cop-out to state that some dives are simply not suited to OW trained divers as OW is envisioned under PADI's system.

My point was that the PADI training philosophy in itself is inadequate to teach divers to dive safely where I live. Whether you feel a diver is competent to take on the role of a buddy without any rescue skills, is a matter of opinion. I personally do not.

PADI's approach is modular, and the OW course is envisioned as a shorter course designed to address the needs of the majority of divers -- who are warm water vacation divers.

Yes, that's the party line anyway.

In my local environment, by way of example, the lakes are frozen 5 months of the year. Should an OW diver be trained to dive in both thick and thin ice conditions as that is the local environment? I personally don't think that is the case.

In my initial courses, I do not teach in an overhead environment, as this would breach standards. In your area, you have 7 months to teach open-water. For those with the experience, you can teach an ice diving course, as I did yesterday.

This is a matter of opinion that is not supported by objective data. We may never have this data, and while it is a rather common belief, there is no way of demonstrating that it is true or not at this point.

Truth is a matter of perspective. My statement reflects mine.

The real advantage is that for the vast majority of divers diving today, anything beyond cramp removal and tired diver tows are not required. They fall decidedly into the 'nice to have' bucket.

Not for me, nor many divers that I and my staff (in my previous charter operation) had to save.

If this is the disadvantage for PADI it is equally a disadvantage of every organization that has a separate rescue course. Unless you wish to contend that all of those other agencies are selling a course which is unnecessary as their students have already been given all of those skills.

If this were the case, all courses past the introductory one wouldn't be necessary. We both know that this isn't the case. After initial certification, a diver needs to gain experience before moving on. During this time however, s/he faces the same hazards as other divers. A buddy can require assistance and a rescue will be needed. A rescue course teaches more than just in-water rescue, well at least mine does.

You want to discuss differences in philosophy, but even when you post what appears to be an honest attempt to point out some differences, you engage in value pronouncements that show you really are not just about the discussion. I get that you don't like PADI or their philosophy, but it is possible to talk about something you don't like without making subjective value judgments which make furthering such a discussion more difficult for anyone who would choose to engage you rather than merely agreeing with you.

The value of discussion is to share opinions and experience. I am relating my direct experiences of teaching diving for 38 years, 17 of those as a PADI Instructor. I have owned a PADI training facility and a NAUI training Centre. My statements are not subjective. They have been formulated after years of experience and reflection. I have been an instructor with 8 different instructor agencies (ACUC, CMAS, NAUI, RLSS, IDEA, PADI, DCBC and IMCA) and have personal experience in dealing with these agencies (and PADI HQ and it's co-founder). These experiences have been objective. If this makes it "difficult" for you or anyone else to have a discussion with me on this topic, that's indeed unfortunate.
 
The reference to the number of confined water dives required is also misleading. While there is no maximum amount of time that may be spent there is no minimum either. This is where I have personally witnessed things that do concern me. I spent time doing a referesher a couple weeks ago. The pool was in use by another instructor with one student. The student appeared to be comfortable in the POOL. In the space of one hour and 5 minutes, I timed it, they completed modules 3, 4, and 5 as far as skills were concerned and the student was given 10 minutes to swim around at the end of the skill sessions. This was her 3rd pool session.

My students spoke with her and found out her total in water time was just over 4 hours to go thru all the modules. I suppose to parrot skills that is enough but what concerns me is that if this is done all the time just how much time is spent allowing the student to get really comfortable. How much task loading can you put on them to see how they will respond to an unusual situation.

Even with a private class for one person I can't do anything approaching that little time. I am required to spend 16 hours in the pool and 16 in the classroom. I can shorten it some but then must make up the lost time on site during the checkouts. For example I could do the final exam between dive days after completing logbooks, or perhaps do the environment lecture. But I'd rather spend the time diving and debriefing and teaching the extra stuff I do that relates directly to the site. Not having minimum times may allow an instructor to get more people thru faster but at what cost?
 
mpetryk:
Summary of the last several pages of this thread:

DCBC, Jim Lapenta, TechBlue, Walter, and Web Monkey: We need better diver training out there, because PADI isn't doing an adequate job.

I have to disagree strongly with this summary. I won’t speak for the others, but I’m guessing they don’t agree either.

First, this thread actually refers to this thread and the one this thread was taken from. Prior to your summary I’ve mentioned PADI in four posts. None of those posts is even in this thread, they are all in the parent thread.

In [post=5050537]post 78[/post], I clarified a point in PADI standards.

In [post=5054276]post 173[/post], I responded to two questions about PADI standards. In the first one, I explained that PADI standards do allow additional training, but that additional training cannot be required. In the second one, I responded to your question asking if PADI required learning underwater rescues in their OW class.

In [post=5068044]post 348[/post], I explained why publishing a comparison of standards would be challenging.

In [post=5068052]post 350[/post], I answered a question about PADI.

All post numbers subject to change without notice.

At no time have I brought PADI into the discussion.

I’m quite happy with people having choices as long as they are given the opportunity to understand the differences between those choices. I am not happy when people are misled, either intentionally or unintentionally. I do believe potential students are often misled.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Diving is like so many other things in life. It is what you make of it.
1. You can get a drivers license, but can you drive a tractor trailer?
2. You can buy a paint brush, but can you paint (like a professional)?
3. You can buy a fishing rod, but are you a fisherman?
4. You can buy a rifle, but can shoot like a Marine Sniper?
5. Etc., etc.

My point is that you can get the basics anywhere, but you really need to continue in the education of diving. Only through diving often, will you gain the confidence that is needed to be an asset to your diving buddy.

I dont know about the painting part... this guy is a professional painter. lol

Looking at me
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

Back
Top Bottom