Too shallow to get narced?

[The Chairman]

A spool might be lost while climbing the boat, playing in sand

There's a way to clip them that eliminates that from happening. Probably more than one.

 

[johndiver999]

The bitterness and toxicity is in the idea that you see a tragedy as an annoyance, and seem to be thinking that ”nobody cares” about someone dying. That is not true. Even orphans sometimes have somebody who may care about them dying. I mean, we all have different moral compass, but I must admit I’ve never heard anyone be that selfish about a hobby.

Mental fortitude and nitrogen narcosis are not related directly, first is psychology the second is biochemistry. It is like saying you are not sensitive to lidocaine because you grew up in a rough neighborhood. If I get narced at 95 feet after a bad night, it means just that I got narced. That is it. The rest is your desire to offend and be mean, coming from your bitter attitude.

You have how many dives and can't begin to function adequately at 80 feet and are then going to tell people what they need to know about narcosis.

Dealing with nitrogen narcosis is absolutely a function of mental fortitude. That may not be all that is required and it may or may not be particularly effective for everyone. But, I am quite sure that all the people who dive deep on air for example, and who seem to function adequately on hundreds or thousands of dives, will tell you that concentration, experience, some degree of self awareness and mental fortitude are all parts of the puzzle.

I've never heard of anyone being that wasted at 80 feet. If you have a known susceptibility to mind altering drugs, and have experienced very unusual symptoms while diving relatively shallow, I think you should do more research about the issue and re-evaluate your personal depth limits.

 

[BoltSnap]

I've never heard of anyone being that wasted at 80 feet.

YES, the symptoms the OP describes are WAY too much for these depths he is diving. He is either exaggerating for the effect or has other issues here.

 

[freeflowigb]

I'm afraid if what I said doesn't make sense to you or you thought any of what I said was "psychology terms", it's probably a mental capacity issue not mental fortitude.

What you are doing is akin to someone driving drunk one night, getting advice from their buddies that driving drunk was a bad idea. Then proceeding to get even more hammered the following night and driving again to "test it out".

This concept clearly seems beyond your comprehension, but it does not excuse your reckless behavior.

No, that’s an idiotic example. Driving drunk means your deliberately incapacitate yourself before engaging in an activity that requires mental clarity. In my case, I was sleep deprived, but I almost never get a good night’s sleep before diving, that’s just my work schedule.

Mental fortitude - a term that you probably heard on YouTube and never cared to look up - refers to power of will or “spirits” to overcome hardships of life. It has nothing to do with being able to function under the influence of drugs or let alone being affected by a narcotic gas.

I have witnessed how easily people closer on the x-axis of the Dunning-Kruger curve will suspect others of being stupider than them, but you are one classic example of that.

If you read the thread, you’d see that my second dive to the same place was way safer and with less narcotic effects due to some tweaking of gear. The third dive was purely an experiment to see if the effects will get stronger beyond what I am comfortable with.

Eventually, as I was starting to get what I described, I decided going deeper was not a good idea. I stopped, concentrated while drawing lines in the sand with my torch, caught my breath and began moving shallower. As the effects subsided, I was perfectly fine again and confined my dive safely.

If you see that as recklessness, or a sign of being retarded, then you either are extremely paranoid and pity your little soul too much, or you yourself might be having issues projecting which on others gives you comfort.

Recklessness would be if I decided to penetrate the wreck while obviously uncomfortable, separated from the group or descended even deeper. And I always leave a good buffer between my real sensations and my level of being comfortable being uncomfortable. So I know I could penetrate that wreck and get out fine, but I did not do that.

 

[freeflowigb]

You have how many dives and can't begin to function adequately at 80 feet and are then going to tell people what they need to know about narcosis.

Dealing with nitrogen narcosis is absolutely a function of mental fortitude. That may not be all that is required and it may or may not be particularly effective for everyone. But, I am quite sure that all the people who dive deep on air for example, and who seem to function adequately on hundreds or thousands of dives, will tell you that concentration, experience, some degree of self awareness and mental fortitude are all parts of the puzzle.

I've never heard of anyone being that wasted at 80 feet. If you have a known susceptibility to mind altering drugs, and have experienced very unusual symptoms while diving relatively shallow, I think you should do more research about the issue and re-evaluate your personal depth limits.

No, it is not. Mental fortitude would be an appropriate notion if you are in a silt-out situation in a cave, you feel panic getting hold of you, but you manage to regulate your emotions, and find the guideline and just follow it according to your training. In this way you displayed strength of your mind despite in face of a dangerous obstacle.

Narcosis is different. It incapacitates you on the level of your body chemistry, and you cannot delay it, or reduce it effects with the sheer power of your mind. You may get used to dealing with it, and discover your limits as to what level of narcosis you can deal with, but that it just experience, not mental fortitude. And if you tell me in your first experience with narcosis you could derive an equation, you would be even fooling yourself, or lying. That does not mean your mind is weak, or whatever. It is a different realm of human capabilitites.

The fact I did not sleep the night before must be the reason it got so strong. Because the previous day I dove the same site after about 2-3 hours of sleep, a bit shallower, but also at around 80, and all I got was very mild symptoms, and a sensation of dreaming (but this might just my imagination sparked by sight of the wreck).

 

[formernuke]

I think of nitrogen like alcohol.

If you go to the store and buy a 1.75 of vodka and then take a sip it's like shallow diving. You have some in your system but not enough so it affects you. Increasing the amount you drink increases the level of intoxication, going deeper increases the level if intoxication.

Just like alcohol (or any other drug) the nitrogen levels affect everyone differently and at different depths (think some people can handle more alcohol than others and not seem intoxicated).

I know some that believe although I haven't seen any scientific studies that you can build of a tolerance to narcossis.

Me personally I get narced at around 70, I don't feel it though. I know I am because I took test on slates during my early training and the results show that although I felt fine I was impaired. At 100 feet I start to feel it badly, and in fact won't go below 100 anymore without trimix.

With that said it seems like you were more impaired than I would expect for 80 feet. Think of it as taking cold medicine or pain killers on top of the alcohol. I would look at the other possible causes increasing the narcossis feeling and then figure things out from there.

 

[johndiver999]

No, it is not. Mental fortitude would be an appropriate notion if you are in a silt-out situation in a cave, you feel panic getting hold of you, but you manage to regulate your emotions, and find the guideline and just follow it according to your training. In this way you displayed strength of your mind despite in face of a dangerous obstacle.

Narcosis is different. It incapacitates you on the level of your body chemistry, and you cannot delay it, or reduce it effects with the sheer power of your mind. You may get used to dealing with it, and discover your limits as to what level of narcosis you can deal with, but that it just experience, not mental fortitude. And if you tell me in your first experience with narcosis you could derive an equation, you would be even fooling yourself, or lying. That does not mean your mind is weak, or whatever. It is a different realm of human capabilitites.

The fact I did not sleep the night before must be the reason it got so strong. Because the previous day I dove the same site after about 2-3 hours of sleep, a bit shallower, but also at around 80, and all I got was very mild symptoms, and a sensation of dreaming (but this might just my imagination sparked by sight of the wreck).

You have very little experience with it and are also (apparently) inordinately susceptible to it. Concentration on the task(s), mental toughness and focus are all necessary to deal with it. I don't wish to go into my personal experience with narcosis in more detail (than I have already made reference to in a previous post), other than to say I have done too many dives to remember (pun intended) where my first (very short) deco stop was deeper than your initial dive - on air.

You seem to be taking this discussion in a personal manner, but that is not my intention. I will reiterate my advice that people should dive within their competence envelope, regardless of what depth that is - or what some training agency recommends. I offered this advice to you without attempting to guess the cause of your very unusual susceptibility.

Narcosis is a very real challenge, makes diving dangerous and should be given careful consideration. I suspect most recreational divers seek to completely avoid the feeling of narcosis and if they fail in that goal, they will immediately ascend and/or abort the dive. Sticking around when you are demonstrably wasted is unwise.

I'm bowing out of this thread. Sorry to have upset you.

 

[steinbil]

No, that’s an idiotic example. Driving drunk means your deliberately incapacitate yourself before engaging in an activity that requires mental clarity

The third dive was purely an experiment to see if the effects will get stronger beyond what I am comfortable with.

You deliberately went deeper than before, knowing that (a) you had not slept well, (b) you are very susceptible to narcosis, (c) against the advice of more experienced divers. I'd say the comparison was quite fitting.

If you see that as recklessness

Yes, I would. The fact that you don't realize how this level of narcosis is reckless if the slightest thing were to go wrong is very telling.

I know I could penetrate that wreck and get out fine, but I did not do that

Bragging about your capacity while being almost incapacitated does not make you seem very levelheaded or one to take the risks of diving seriously. It's also ironic you brought up the Dunning-Kruger effect...

 

[sharknutz]

1.

No, that’s an idiotic example. Driving drunk means your deliberately incapacitate yourself before engaging in an activity that requires mental clarity. In my case, I was sleep deprived, but I almost never get a good night’s sleep before diving, that’s just my work schedule.

You call it an idiotic example, but can't form a coherent thought as to why it's idiotic.

2.

It has nothing to do with being able to function under the influence of drugs or let alone being affected by a narcotic gas.

How would you know? You don't do drugs or have much experience with NN?

3.

I have witnessed how easily people closer on the x-axis of the Dunning-Kruger curve will suspect others of being stupider than them, but you are one classic example of that.

I'm not sure Dunning-Kruger applies since my impression of your intelligence is more derived from your ability to coherently and logically respond to points in this thread.

4.

If you read the thread, you’d see that my second dive to the same place was way safer and with less narcotic effects due to some tweaking of gear. The third dive was purely an experiment to see if the effects will get stronger beyond what I am comfortable with.

Eventually, as I was starting to get what I described, I decided going deeper was not a good idea. I stopped, concentrated while drawing lines in the sand with my torch, caught my breath and began moving shallower. As the effects subsided, I was perfectly fine again and confined my dive safely.

If you see that as recklessness, or a sign of being retarded, then you either are extremely paranoid and pity your little soul too much, or you yourself might be having issues projecting which on others gives you comfort.

Recklessness would be if I decided to penetrate the wreck while obviously uncomfortable, separated from the group or descended even deeper. And I always leave a good buffer between my real sensations and my level of being comfortable being uncomfortable. So I know I could penetrate that wreck and get out fine, but I did not do that.

Reading any of your posts makes me feel like I'm losing braincells. In an effort to preserve my capacity to handle NN, I'm also bowing out. Try not to end up with a Darwin award or on the accident/incident section of this forum.

Also with regard to Dunning Kruger since you seem more like a pictures kind of guy.

 

[freeflowigb]

1.

You call it an idiotic example, but can't form a coherent thought as to why it's idiotic.

2.


How would you know? You don't do drugs or have much experience with NN?

3.


I'm not sure Dunning-Kruger applies since my impression of your intelligence is more derived from your ability to coherently and logically respond to points in this thread.

4.



Reading any of your posts makes me feel like I'm losing braincells. In an effort to preserve my capacity to handle NN, I'm also bowing out. Try not to end up with a Darwin award or on the accident/incident section of this forum.

Also with regard to Dunning Kruger since you seem more like a pictures kind of guy.


View attachment 772644

glad to see your rhetoric getting less hostile. as to losing brain cells - I got that when I was reading Emmanuel Kant in middle school. Now that does not mean I am smarter than him, or he was spouting nonsense. It might be just that his way of thinking seemed way too alien, far-fetched and convoluted to me. So your sensation of losing braincells was intended to a be a dig, but it in reality is pretty common thing and can be triggered by a lot of things.

Dunning-Kruger applies, as you started making conclusions about my "mental capacity" knowing just that I had a case of narcosis. That tendency to become overly confident about something in lack of knowledge is what puts your guy on peak of mt. Stupid, isn't it?

I responded as politely and with as much appreciation as possible to all the people in this thread who took their time to analyze and response to my apparently risky experiment, except you. You became making personal insults, which, over the internet, I never give a second thought about, but here I was trying to show it is not accepted on this forum. From my experience on SB, I never saw anyone being being that bitter and arrogant even in response to the strangest of questions.